steveo578 Posted February 11, 2011 Share Posted February 11, 2011 (edited) Maurice but what is meant by the last to be converted Fair point, ajmac Mark Haywards book suggests that the first conversions were to M4A4 as they came over from the US, then M4 Hybrids as they were shipped then older M4s that were recalled in the US. That depends on how you read it - it is too easy to regard the genealogy of the Firefly as a simple progression with MkVs converted first then Hybrids with a few Mk1 of welded fabrication at the end of production. after your post last night I read through Mark Haywards book and I don't come to that conclusion, looking at text tables and photos (and other books) my conclusion is all types were represented at or around mid 1944 with MkVc being dominant. As Maurice says there were Hybrids in ETO from mid June although at that stage the MkVc was the majority- this changed in mid to late 1944 when as the production of Fireflies increased the number of suitable MkVc diminished, the MkVs/M4A4 supplied through August to October 1944 were rebuilds of early M4A4s used to train US forces many were sub standard as they retained Westinghouse Electric traverse gear and were therefore unsuitable for conversion to Firefly. Hybrids although many by the same time were rebuilds had few compatibility problems - welded hull MK1s would have been a mixed bag however -any Mk1 remanufactured which retained either the Westinghouse traverse or the Pressed Steel Car Co. transmission-dynamo layout would be ruled out (if I remember correctly Adrian Barrell mentioned this on another thread). Other tanks supplied in the second half of 1944 were otherwise incompatable such as M4 105s and M4A1 75s which had the PSCC layout (rather than the curved hull restricting stowage) and of course various M4A1 and M4A2 76 and other samples such as T270129 -which as an M4 might have been compatable had it not been fitted with spaced out suspension. The final transfers of M4s (it doesn't say whether they are M4 or Hybrids) to Britain were 90 swapped for M4A1 76 to US forces in theatre in January 1945, but perhaps up to 80 others were transfered from US 12th Army Group for conversion to Firefly were additional to this transfer. There is a noted photo of US marked Fireflies both standard M4c and M4c hybrid (both remanufacted) at a delivery centre with some M22 light tanks which were probably some of the 40 or so those delivered to 9th Army part of Gen. Bradley 12th Army Group in March 1945, these were probably amongst the last Firefly built. Maurice, I would be intersted to know the number of the tank you mention as being back loaded for conversion as I wasn't aware of any vehicles being withdrawn from service. I also note that the number of your tank is a fairly early number for a remanufacture tank -perhaps a vehicle retained for trials being converted. Steve Edited February 11, 2011 by steveo578 bad grammar Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steveo578 Posted February 11, 2011 Share Posted February 11, 2011 Adrian Barrell You can almost imagine units offering 75mm tanks up in an effort to get more 17 pdr! I can imagine some wit putting in an extensive spares lists -starting complete 17pdr gun, mount shield - if you can't get a complete one build it yourself:laugh: Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ajmac Posted February 11, 2011 Author Share Posted February 11, 2011 Steve, you're a better man than me, I haven't opened it in over a year, so it is easy to over simplify the matter :-) I'm glad he wrote that book, it dispelled many of the 'known' facts about 17pdr Shermans. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steveo578 Posted February 11, 2011 Share Posted February 11, 2011 hi Alastair Yes it's a good book -a good opportunity to read it again even at midnight, lots of interesting research especially on the service side -there's still lots to work out about Fireflies for example how and where they were reconstructed - even today possible new stuff came up with Maurice's disclosure of a hybrid being backloaded for rebuild -I was under the impression that only un-issued Shermans were rebuilt due to the need to get value for money for extensve amount of work involved, seems I live and learn. Hope your loyds going well? Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
supertrack Posted February 12, 2011 Share Posted February 12, 2011 Maurice asked me to post these picture of his progress as he cannot seem to attach them to him posts. No doubt he will be along to explain them. I can say that it looks fantastic! In French "trop mortel ! " :wow: What is your drug Maurice ? do you have a little for me ? Fantastic job :saluting: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
supertrack Posted February 14, 2011 Share Posted February 14, 2011 Maurice you put on your tank a new turret ring ? The old was broken ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maurice Posted February 15, 2011 Share Posted February 15, 2011 I have to check that number up on that firefly , got it written down somewere. Yes it is a new turret ring , the other was missing . Actually I started with an empty Hull , everything was taken out to remove the differential carrier through the Hull instead of taking the final drive housing of Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
supertrack Posted February 15, 2011 Share Posted February 15, 2011 Thank's Maurice . What engine do you will put in your tank ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maurice Posted February 15, 2011 Share Posted February 15, 2011 Thank's Maurice . What engine do you will put in your tank ? The engine wich belongs in a IC Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrian Barrell Posted February 15, 2011 Share Posted February 15, 2011 The engine wich belongs in a IC Well with radials being 2 a penny, I should think so too....... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kpu121265 Posted February 15, 2011 Share Posted February 15, 2011 (edited) Wish i'd got one for a penny, never mind two..... Ken Edited February 15, 2011 by kpu121265 spelling as usual! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrian Barrell Posted February 15, 2011 Share Posted February 15, 2011 You are right.... I remember when Budge was selling take outs for £250 and new ones in boxes for £2500. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
supertrack Posted February 15, 2011 Share Posted February 15, 2011 I said something stupid ? :-X Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maurice Posted February 16, 2011 Share Posted February 16, 2011 You are right.... I remember when Budge was selling take outs for £250 and new ones in boxes for £2500. And were we were last Sunday , that is the place these radials came from , and were then sold on to Budge for 500,- € new in the box. rubber tracks were 1200,-€ in those days Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrian Barrell Posted February 16, 2011 Share Posted February 16, 2011 I said something stupid ? :-X Not at all but Maurice is also doing a Sherman V and the engine for that is harder to do.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
supertrack Posted February 16, 2011 Share Posted February 16, 2011 The engine for the sherman V is what engine ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrian Barrell Posted February 16, 2011 Share Posted February 16, 2011 Sherman V is M4A4 so multibank. Sherman IC is M4 with 17 pdr gun so R975 radial. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
supertrack Posted February 16, 2011 Share Posted February 16, 2011 Yes i understand Maurice need an Multibank . Me too :-D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ajmac Posted February 17, 2011 Author Share Posted February 17, 2011 Adrian, so where is your nearest Multibank parts main dealer in Suffolk? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrian Barrell Posted February 17, 2011 Share Posted February 17, 2011 Adrian, so where is your nearest Multibank parts main dealer in Suffolk? Funnily enough, I am him! :cool2: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maurice Posted February 17, 2011 Share Posted February 17, 2011 Funnily enough, I am him! :cool2: aah over here all those Dodge WC owners tell me they have all the parts I need in stock at their sheds , when I show them then a Multibank part ,then they explain that it is a Bubba item I have :-D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ajmac Posted February 17, 2011 Author Share Posted February 17, 2011 (edited) Well, you don't get closer than that! I found that the cast iron really took a pounding on the Loyds when they were targeted, I don't mean the obvious damage, but hairline cracks all over the block. It looked ok, even up close, but tap with a rubber mallet and oops, the bell housing fell off! Something to watchout for when re-using cast Iron engine parts that have spent time on a target range.... Not aimed at you Adrian, you've done it all before, but others may not. Edited February 17, 2011 by ajmac Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrian Barrell Posted February 17, 2011 Share Posted February 17, 2011 aah over here all those Dodge WC owners tell me they have all the parts I need in stock at their sheds , when I show them then a Multibank part ,then they explain that it is a Bubba item I have :-D You mean they are not all the same parts? :red: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrian Barrell Posted February 17, 2011 Share Posted February 17, 2011 I found that the cast iron really took a pounding on the Loyds when they were targeted, I don't mean the obvious damage, but hairline cracks all over the block. It looked ok, even up close, but tap with a rubber mallet and oops, the bell housing fell off! Something to watchout for when re-using cast Iron engine parts that have spent time on a target range.... Not aimed at you Adrian, you've done it all before, but others may not. Good point Alastair. I suppose Loyds , having little in the way of protection for the internals suffered more than most. My front engine gear casing had the rh mounting knocked off by a large shell hitting the lower side but this did not damage anything else in the engine. 1 1/2" of armour plate protected it from all but direct hits. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steveo578 Posted February 17, 2011 Share Posted February 17, 2011 supertrackYes i understand Maurice need an Multibank . Me too :-D So you're taking your Sherman back to its wartime condition rather than a M4A4(transforme) as it would be in French post war service? Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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