Lwt Land Rover Mirrors

[LarryH57]

Regarding wing mirrors fitted to British Army Lightweight Land Rovers, I have been told they were originally designed and built with wing mirrors, but these were replaced the production line with adjustable door mounted mirrors (on bars attached to the upper door hinge). I guess this was done at a time when the Series IIA was replaced by the Series III though strangely my 1980 GS still has the holes for wing mounted mirrors. I have been told that these wing mounted mirrors vibrated when the Lwts were in use, and consequently the mirrors were mounted on the door hinge - but that didn't cure the problem.

Consequently some Lwts like mine had their wing mirrors replaced in service with those identical to those on Land Rover Defenders, but I guess this was not official. Is Defender mirrors on a Lwt more of a 'thing' in preservation due to the non availability of spares, or something from their use in the British Army as a modification?

Edited December 6, 2023 by LarryH57

[ruxy]

S2A  & S3  had 'long-stem' wing mirrors  with a oblong head (that cracked at the corners) , in the 1970's I was also fitting  door mirrors/brackets by Wingard - from the lR Optional  Parts book - you could use the oblong or round head (that did not crack)  but  also fitted a 'overtaker' , these civvy parts had a 1/2" dia. stem.   It would be 1979   VRM  of  HF  , that the wing mirrors were dropped and a WINGARD  door mirror was used with a heavier hinge bracket , these have a 5/8" dia. stem with bigger oblong head - these had a steel shell and are now RARE  although many plastic copies very near - these were from the "commercial catalogue".    Defender arms/heads -  I think Solihull may have fitted on very late KC & KD  , also by Britax/Wingard , the parts bin was probably empty and superceeded by the Defender type that had come on stream & arguably better (in convex).  Defender type - the Britax type were coped by others - you would be hard pushed to tell the difference , most of these made in Taiwan and are a fract.ion of 'genuine'  ££    (As used on LWT - boomerang spring mechanism was on all  Britax-WINGARD)  cheapo wing mirrors often just clamped with a pair of large flat washers. .

For rivet-counters - genuine long-stem wing type  NOS are a top $ totally stupid price most Rover 1  / early S3 resto are spoiled by lacking.    Real r/c.trs  would only fit a proper metal shell head to a door mirror.

[ruxy]

btw  -  wings went unchanged with door mirrors - they just fitted a grommet.   1979 on  - proper  FFR front wings had a spade lid for co-axial connections box & IIRC miror hole was deleted.

[10FM68]

6 hours ago, LarryH57 said:

Regarding wing mirrors fitted to British Army Lightweight Land Rovers, I have been told they were originally designed and built with wing mirrors, but these were replaced the production line with adjustable door mounted mirrors (on bars attached to the upper door hinge). I guess this was done at a time when the Series IIA was replaced by the Series III though strangely my 1980 GS still has the holes for wing mounted mirrors. I have been told that these wing mounted mirrors vibrated when the Lwts were in use, and consequently the mirrors were mounted on the door hinge - but that didn't cure the problem.

Consequently some Lwts like mine had their wing mirrors replaced in service with those identical to those on Land Rover Defenders, but I guess this was not official. Is Defender mirrors on a Lwt more of a 'thing' in preservation due to the non availability of spares, or something from their use in the British Army as a modification?

In service wing mirrors were very vulnerable to exercise damage so it is not unusual to find early vehicles fitted with later pattern heads - though less common to find the arms having been replaced as well.  Of my in-service photos, the earliest Defender-type appears on a KB, but you can be quite sure that they would have been fitted to earlier vehicles on occasion provided that vehicle was in service after the Defender-type became available to demand from stores. 

I suppose the rule of thumb is deciding exactly what year you are trying to replicate and use only a mirror, or mirror arm which was available then or earlier. 

Interestingly, the prototypes had the mirrors on the doors.  Production models then had them on the wings before they returned to the doors, as Tony says, with contracts from 78/79.  Of the wing-mounted arms, my photo collection suggests that circular heads were more common than rectangular, that some Lightweights had standard arms fitted in place of long ones, some had one of each, one or two a bespoke arrangement and even some in-service Rover 1s had mirrors returned to the doors!  A lot was down to what the REME LAD  or what FAMTO stores had available.

 

An example of in-service updating to Defender-style mirrors is the HAC Ceremonial Gun detachment - it looks as though all their Lightweights were fitted with them.

Edited December 6, 2023 by 10FM68

[LarryH57]

Thanks all.

My Lwt was cast in 1991, so had about half its service from 1980, when Defenders were on the scene?

[10FM68]

Well, if it is highly likely that it served in the same unit as a Defender for at least, say, a year or 18 months, then it is entirely reasonable to accept that it may have received Defender wing mirrors.  I don't think you'd lose an argument with the most persistent of rivet-counter - just tell him yours belonged to the CO of the regiment who always demanded the very best and the very latest!  (Or the OC of the REME LAD - their vehicles were usually pretty well-furnished as well!) 

Same with rubies (the screw-in lenses), some believe you can only fit the early, small glass ones to early Land Rovers and the 'bug-eyes' only to later ones.  Well, they were regularly mixed up in service - I've even seen Land Rovers sporting the larger Bedford-style ones.  As I said, the rule of thumb is, if your vehicle was in service when whatever it is you want (or have to) add was also in service, you'll probably be OK.  You're more likely to be historically correct thn someone sporting a siren on their jeep and there are plenty of those out there! 

Soldiers weren't fussed with form - only function.  And, I'm willing to bet, few are the soldiers who ever knew there was a difference between bug-eye indicators lenses for the front and for the rear!  I certainly didn't!

[robin craig]

How well put

 

 

[ruxy]

7 hours ago, LarryH57 said:

Thanks all.

My Lwt was cast in 1991, so had about half its service from 1980, when Defenders were on the scene?

If it has 'brackets'  made from flat-plate abt 3mm thick x approx.  50mmx80mm affixed to the top door hinge - then these are correct part for fitting the 5/8" stem mirrors or the Defender mirror.  Unfortunately the common bodge is to bend the hinge and drill abt.  1/4" dia. to bolt the mirror on direct (secured with two hex. nuts then hidden behind the hinge.  More than a fair share of  KD  LWT I have seen with Defender alloy door tops (used prior to civvy single piece doors)  , in fact probably all the few KD I have seen , so I suppose these were fitted on Solihull line.   Perhaps on-highway safety is to be considered more than time-line accuracy.  You need to see the rear O/S corner , as close to rear & behind  & overtaking vehicles.  Due to differences , human build ,  Defender seats etc.   I would say tilt-rolled up & choke on exhaust fumes , interior mirror & Defender with convex glass.  Modern vans are better equipped but any LR with a hood or tin-top seems to have more danger than Classic vans BIG or small.  Have you noticed that overtakers sometimes appear out of nowhere  ?