Malkara & Orange William

[fv1609]

I originally posted this as a reply to Luke in the Introductions Section, but I think this little covered subject could easily become lost to members if it is just left in Introductions & deserves greater coverage.

 

I have added some pictures unpublished before. The originals & their negatives were assigned to me by the late Capt Peter Russell who was EME responsible for bringing Malkara into service. Here he is seen thanking the ships Captain (possibly of MT Ship Markhar) for a safe voyage to Libya & the target being unloaded onto its trailer to be pulled by a Scammell.

 

First of all welcome, Luke. I have been meaning to respond to your query about Comets as a test bed for Malkara & was further prompted by your letter in Tank about this & your reference to a "Project Orange" & "a Humber Pig Armoured Car was actually used operationally".

 

I've not seen any firm evidence that Comet was actually used as a test bed for Malkara. Although a Comet, with turret markings 84718/63, was shipped to Libya for hot weather Malkara trials as a target.

 

As you may know Malkara derived from Project J & development largely took place in Australia. Meanwhile Project 6 was the development of Orange William in the UK by Fairey.

 

The development of the two rival missile systems progressed in parallel with some interchange of technology. Some of the various launch platforms that were considered might be adapted for use either by Malkara or Orange William.

 

In a report dated 27 February 1957 FVRDE were keen to promote the Centurion Heavy Tank Destroyer. Already in 1956 there were two trailers, one in Australia & one it the UK, which were mock ups of the proposed Centurion launch control system for Malkara. However the War Office favoured a requirement for converting six Comets as launch vehicles for Orange William. At the time of the meeting these had not materialised as the Ministry of Supply were not prepared to fund the conversion. Although it was thought perhaps one conversion might be MoS funded & perhaps the other five by the WO.

 

However “The proposed Comet conversion does not, of course, meet a requirement for the interim term vehicle. The War Office have not issued the military characteristics for the long term vehicle.”

 

“A firm decision on this programme is now required before serious work is started.”

 

A series of other matters were discussed which was all tempered by “The Chairman said there was little purpose in discussing this matter at this stage. The contractor is working to a financial limit which, perhaps not adequate, could not be discussed until the Defence Review was completed.”

 

By September 1957 the airportability concept was very much to the fore with consideration of vehicles such as the proposed FV426, Land Rover & even Ferret.

 

Although a brief mention was made that “Major Pierson replied that at this moment four launcher, controller teams were carrying out exercises on this matter in the Bovington area.” But there was no indication what vehicles were involved.

 

Some of the inter-relationships between the two missiles systems & their various launch vehicles are touched on here:

 

http://www.hmvf.co.uk/pdf/WWW%20FV1620.pdf

 

and for more on the Orange William content to the first part of this:

 

http://www.shorlandsite.com/images/L...lesElliott.pdf

 

 

[TrevorLarkum]

I've not seen any firm evidence that Comet was actually used as a test bed for Malkara.

 

I don't know about the historical testing of Comet with Malkara, but I came upon this thread while researching 'in the opposite direction'. At the start of the year for PreservedTanks.com I researched the tanks that either are, or have at some time, been on the books of the Bovington tank museum. The results are here:

 

http://preservedtanks.com/LocationCategory.aspx?CountryId=4&Max=3030

 

One of the Comets that had been on the books was described in the following way: "...used as a trial Malkara launch vehicle". At the time I could find out nothing more but more recently I have been writing up the tanks at the Isle of Wight Military History Museum:

 

http://preservedtanks.com/Locations.aspx?LocationCategoryId=3100

 

One of the Comets there is described in the following way: "It has had a new front welded on as the original was removed to accommodate a prototype rocket launcher". I presume these to be the same vehicle and have combined their entries into one:

 

http://preservedtanks.com/Profile.aspx?UniqueID=2061

 

Let me know if this adds anything to the Comet/Malkara story, and particularly if you can add any further information on this vehicle.

[fv1609]

Trevor thank you for coming back.

 

About 15 years ago I was talking to an enthusiast from IoW & he told me that on the island they had a prototype launcher for Orange William. I was excited that it might be a FV426 but I have since come to realise that such a launcher never progressed very far & the description didn't seem to match up to configuration of something from the FV421 series. So this must presumably be the launcher (of whatever missile) on the island.

 

At approximately the same time I came across someone who had worked for the Min of Aviation & described firing Malkara test missiles from a launcher. He remembered very clearly the loading of a missile from within the tank & swinging it up ready for launch & simultaneously the opposing part of mechanism swung down, now empty of its missile ready for reload. He remembered this well as he was very wary of this process as it would have been easy to become seriously injured.

 

But this butterfly launcher arm is exactly how the load/launch mechanism was to be on the Heavy Tank Destroyer FV4010. As far I know no FV4010 was ever constructed, only two launcher trailers to simulate the launch compartment in the proposed Centurion launcher. This seemed to be the view of Col Val Cockle (Malkara Project Liaison Officer) & Capt Peter Russell (EME for Malkara trials). Sadly neither are with us to ask anything further.

 

So whether there are two entirely different tanks involved in GW trials I don't know. The FV4010 launch mechanism was to have been at the rear yet the IoW example was modified at the front. I have to declare that I know nothing about tanks, which does nothing to clarify the situation. But it would be nice to get clarification from IOWMM about the actual weapon under test, if indeed that they know for certain. It is not helped by the fact that both were HESH GWs of similar size & at a glance of similar configuration.

 

Please keep us posted if you turn up anything.

[Luke131]

Thanks Trevor

 

For your detailed reply. I have been doing some further research onto the vehicles that carried the Malkara. It seems from a report That I read that a Comet chassis was used as test bed for a tracked armoured test on a forward indirect fire vehicle. The idea being that this vehicle goes forward to spot and target enemy tanks passing the target back to Malkara launchers futher back. If this worked then a Cent chassis would have been used as a production model

 

I suspect that the Comet chassis at the IOW Museum was this test rig. The same report also suggests that not just the trailers with the launchers were built as prototypes but FV426 APCs were converted/Built to carry the launchers along with Centurion chassis being strong;y considered. Designs for them were drawn up, but later discounted instead the Hornet being favoured.

It remarks on how the 426 were not up to the job in an exercise around Bovington and Lulworth and Salisbury plain. I would like know of how the seven Comets you mentioned were going to be used?

 

Thanks

 

Luke