Still No Proof, But. . . . . . .

[harry7134]

Hi.

On the thread " Metal or Rubber Tracks" (10/10/09 ), I ventured the fact that Centurion metal tracks were fitted backwards to avoid road damage. I was asked to substantiate this, and have spent a lot of time trying to do so.

 

I cannot come up with anything in writing, except for one small reference to Centurion BARV`s reversing their tracks for more grip, and a few ad hoc comments from old "tankies" that " My Cent wouldn`t slide like this if I could put the tracks on the right way round".

 

The BARV comment does however seem to bear out this fact that reversing the tracks from their peacetime fitting, in order to get more grip, coupled with the fact that the BARV seemed to spend more time pushing than pulling.

 

One more thing I have been told was that during the Cold War, there was a period when the Dozer tanks from the tank regiments in Germany were on standby to go to dig up the Autobahns in the event of a Russian advance. Part of the preparation for this was for the crews to practice fitting the tracks the "wrong way" round. However , I can find no written proof of this ever being done.

 

To the comment that the tank manuals state that the tracks should be fitted as seen in any photograph, I can only comment that all these manuals are "peacetime" versions, and I very much doubt if there are any "wartime" ones in existence.

 

In all this I am in no way trying to be controversial, but I am certain that I was told in good faith by a Tankie that his tracks were "on backwards".

 

Harry.

[AlienFTM]

Hi.

On the thread " Metal or Rubber Tracks" (10/10/09 ), I ventured the fact that Centurion metal tracks were fitted backwards to avoid road damage. I was asked to substantiate this, and have spent a lot of time trying to do so.

 

In the late 1970s we expected that when "they" made a move on the IGB, first thing we would do on our CVR(T)s was reverse the tracks (even if they were rubber-shod) to improve grip.

 

 

One more thing I have been told was that during the Cold War, there was a period when the Dozer tanks from the tank regiments in Germany were on standby to go to dig up the Autobahns in the event of a Russian advance. Part of the preparation for this was for the crews to practice fitting the tracks the "wrong way" round. However , I can find no written proof of this ever being done.

 

Probably early in the Cold War. By my time, we expected that the engineers would deploy ADMs to initiate primary demolitions on bridges in a hurry so that they could concentrate on preparing clean reserve demolitions at their leisure, on bridges and choke points that were to be used by our troops whilst straighening the line during the Soviet advance, then detonated in the face of the lead Soviet battlegroup.

 

Sat on radio stag in the back of Zero Alpha one evening in the company of the RSO, I was so bored that I was reading the Slidex book. (It was a book used to convert radio traffic into a series of bigrams that looked something like:

 

17 HA WA YT HE LA DS SU ND ER LA ND FC)

 

As well as words there were aconyms. We only ever used sheet 1 when working to our battle group because it was the only sheet everybody had, though we in Command Troop had full sets in case higher formation sent us a Slidex message down. In fact to work with higher formation we always used BID anyway.

 

So there I was bo-o-o-o-ored as bored gets, struggling desperately to stay awake on the dead stag. Then I stumbled across ADM.

 

"Sir, what's an ADM?"

 

Sir hastily put down whatever he was doing, turned to me and said,"Don't EVER use that acronym (or any other nuclear-related actonym) on the air. It's an atomic demolition munition. Every major bridge built in West Germany since the War has been built with an ADM chamber so that we can primary demolish them. If the Commies hear or decode the word ADM or anything nuclear, they may assume we are in the process of escalation and may strike pre-emptively."

 

I often wondered, even though the acronym appeared in the Slidex wallet, whether this was a WAH, until last year when QI featured ADMs and chickens.

 

(http://wapedia.mobi/en/Atomic_demolition_munitions)

[Adrian Barrell]

Harry, you originally said that all Cnts had the tracks fitted backwards to avoid damaging the roads and posted a picture to illustrate your point. I commented that the picture showed the way that all the manuals state is the correct way.

 

I also have a lot of other manuals and those for Crusader, Cromwell and Comet all show the same way i.e. spud trailing. These manuals are definately wartime so I still cannot see any validity in the argument that Cents are fitted backwards for road use.

 

I did find a correction pasted in a Covenanter book that had originally been printed showing them fitted the other way. Whether this change related to a change in policy or just a mistake in the book is not mentioned. However since about 1941, the British Army has intended it's steel tracks to be fitted one way and apart from odd exceptions like the ARV you mentioned, it seems they always were.

 

I wonder if there has always been a difference of opinion amongst tankies and this has resulted in the 'wrong way round' thought being passed on.

 

 

Looking at it from a technical viewpoint, I would say that spud trailing would damage the road a lot less than spud leading for the following reason.

 

With a trailing spud, the passage of the road wheel along the face of the link rotates the link towards the road with the link pivoting in the previous link. The spud only contacts the road surface at the last second and contacts it squarely with little or no relative movement.

 

With a leading spud, the sharp edge of the spud is the first part of the link to contact the road and as the wheel travels across the link, it rotates it about its pivot, causing the spud edge to cut into the road surface as it does so.

 

So, I would say thay spud trailing, as the manuals show and as the picture you posted shows is the correct way to avoid damage to the road but is also the intended way.

[Meteor mark 4B]

A Korean war Cent driver of my acquaintance once told me that the tracks were changed around from normal in Korea to assist in climbing the steep hills there. Then they chose to reverse up the hills and turn at the top, rather less hassle.

[harry7134]

Adrian,

I agree with your reasoning, and must admit that without any form of evidence, I concede :cry:.

 

But you know how it is when you get an idea that just wont go away:undecided: !!!!!

 

Harry.

[Adrian Barrell]

Harry, absolutely! There must be a reason for it, be it rumour of truth. We'll have to do more digging!

[agripper]

I had also heard of reversing tracks for the BARV's but all the photos I have seen both coming out of ROFL at Barnbow to one in service durrring the 60's 70's 80's 90's and on mine which left service in 2005 all show the same way round. Have a look in my album or website if these are different to the standard Centurions then its has to be right. But I doent think mine look any different to any other cent I have seen. I dont see how turning the track will make any difference to road damage. I have had mine on the road and she left nothing other than the odd scuff mark.

[Adrian Barrell]

I dont see how turning the track will make any difference to road damage. I have had mine on the road and she left nothing other than the odd scuff mark.

 

I think it will, see my post above.

 

Looking at BARV pictures, they are fitted the same way as gun tanks, i.e. spud trailing.

Edited January 27, 2010 by Adrian Barrell

[agripper]

Missed that bit sorry. Is this more likly to cause damage on a tarmac road rather than a concrete one which would make sense as I have only made tight turns on the concrete. Though when I took the BARV onto a tarmac road last year I had to make a first gear left turn , which made a mess of the mud I was on but only left scuffs on the road? But I was trying hard to be careful.:-D

 

Could you explan which part the "SPUD" is please I I'm ot sure I am thinking of the same part, a photo would be even better, sorry to be so dumb on this point, still getting to grips with the whole tracked thing. Its a lot different from aircraft or landrovers.:cheesy:

[steveo578]

Hope this helps track drawing 1 shows the Spud. Drawing 2 shows the correct spud trialing action as described by Adrian.quoted here.

 

With a trailing spud, the passage of the road wheel along the face of the link rotates the link towards the road with the link pivoting in the previous link. The spud only contacts the road surface at the last second and contacts it squarely with little or no relative movement.

 

With a leading spud, the sharp edge of the spud is the first part of the link to contact the road and as the wheel travels across the link, it rotates it about its pivot, causing the spud edge to cut into the road surface as it does so.

 

 

The road wheel imparting a turning motion to the track link causing the "spud" to touch down squarely (flat) to the road surface. If reversed a sharp edge would contact first.

 

As an addition Churchill Track (all four types) are as a general rule fitted with Spud Leading, however as the track passes over the first two road wheels in desending steepness of angle before contacting the ground under the third road wheel set, at which point the the spud is almost horizontal.

Edited January 27, 2010 by steveo578
addition and spelling

[Meteor mark 4B]

We used to make a REAL mess of some of the roads in Germany with the Cent. Neutral 180 degree turns prohibited!!

[AlienFTM]

I thought it a coincidence that the same question just popped up on the ARRSE RAC Forum. Glad I didn't decide to repeat myself there.

[agripper]

I was thinking of a different part of the track after all.:blush: