Old Bill

No, this is the London to Brighton Historic Commercial Vehicle run. This is what we are taking (very slowly!). All prayers for a dry day will be gratefully accepted. Cheers! Steve

Well, on Sunday morning, we had another go. I made up an external fuel pipe which runs outside the engine box and just comes inside next to the carburettor. We cranked the engine up and it fired easily and ran, a bit rough to start but soon settled down. We didn't have time to go out apart from which it was pretty wet out so we just let it idle in the garage until it was properly warm and then switched off. After some few minutes to let the heat get through, I had another swing and it started again with little trouble. Fingers are now crossed that we have nailed that problem and we can go out on the road again, thank goodness. Incidentally, Tim has been looking through the old post cards and has found that nearly every one shows the lorries running without the engine covers. Also, our own lorry arrived with the top halves of the covers cut off so there may be a clue there that the overheating problem was a common one! This exercise has proven to be quite an education! Steve

Well, I am down in Devon and it does seem that I have been barking up the wrong tree! After pushing off the remainder of the snow yesterday, we unsheeted it and I gave the handle a turn. It stopped with a 'clonk'. Dad had previously backed off the tappets and all of the push rods were free so it wasn't the valves. The clutch was held down so it couldn't be the gearbox. The only other things driven by the engine are the fan, magneto and water pump. I couldn't see a problem with the pump and the fan was free so this left only the magneto which was strange as I had removed it the last time I was down! It turned out that when I had taken it out, the coupling had dropped out and I hadn't noticed. It was left leaning against the drive dog which it managed to jam when the engine was turned. I simply lifted it out and that problem was solved. One down! I then put the magneto on the running board and gave it a flick whilst holding one of the leads nearby. I obtained a reasonable spark. A second flick caused another, much weaker, spark which was a surprise as I would expect only one spark every second revolution from any lead. All four leads were the same giving a good spark followed by a weak one. Our spare mag gave one good spark every second rev as I would expect so I fitted that back on the engine and re-timed it all. We reset the tappets, added some more fuel, this time with a shot of Redex which one of had bought and forgotten about, and then tried to start it. It fired on the third compression and sounded a completely different animal. We went for a run down the road and it went very well. At last it was nice to drive! We did a couple of miles and all was fine so I decided to try and run it back on the internal fuel line. You may remember that my original thoughts were that the fuel was getting too hot and causing it to run lean so I had rigged up an external line outside the engine bay. I reconnected the original fuel line and we had another go. It would not start! We swung and swung but it didn't want to know. After about 40 minutes, it chuffed and then burst into life but it was rough as rats and popped and banged something terrible. We left the side panel off and I set off towards home. It got better after a while, as it cooled off, and I got it into the driveway and back in its shed without a problem although it was still rough. From all of this, I think there have been three problems. The magneto had a fault to start with, one of the exhaust tappets had too big a clearance and the more-volatile unleaded fuel tends to vapourise in the carb giving us too lean a mixture. The magneto and tappets, we have sorted. Todays project is to make up a proper external fuel pipe, with lagging, to prevent the fuel from being heated. We are also going to use an additive to help the valve stem lubrication. After all that, it is fingers crossed for Brighton! Many thanks, everyone, for all of the great advice and assistance offered here. Once we have our new fuel pipe fitted, I will let you know how we get on. Cheers! Steve

Nice job! I do so like to see the details of a restoration. They really show the amount of work involved! Steve

Thanks chaps. I will get in touch with Morris's. They have always been very helpful in the past but I never thought of asking about fuel additives. Cheers! Steve

Hi Richard. The ice doesn't seem to cause it any serious problem starting or running. It is so hot in the engine bay that it soon goes. What is interesting to me is that the condensation can be seen and it begins to freeze as soon as the engine is started which it didn't do with leaded fuel. (At least, I never noticed!). There are quite a lot of clues here as to what might be going on. I just need to interpret them and with all of your help, I think we are getting there. I certainly have plenty of avenues to explore. First priority is to get it to turn again! Steve

We have had a new development! Father has tried to crank the engine and found it solid! It turned when we parked up but has seized as the engine has cooled. Father crawled underneath and tried turning the flywheel backwards and it has moved a bit but very little so the pistons and main bearings are free but it is sticking elsewhere. Holding the clutch down has no effect so we are reaching the conclusion that some of the valves have stuck. He will try slacking off the tappets on the exhaust side tomorrow and see if the engine will turn any more. If it does turn then they are our problem. Now, this is my hypothesis as to what has happened. Dad has made new valve guides and we had new valves made to match. As a result, they are a lovely close fit. This is a side valve engine with no valve stem lubrication at all. Up to now, the lead compounds have kept it all moving but with unleaded fuel, these have gradually disappeared. The unleaded fuel has also been causing the engine to run lean and therefore hotter so I would suggest that the combination of extra heat and lack of lubricant is causing the valves to stick open or be very slow to close thus causing all this backfiring. Any thoughts please? Assuming that this is the problem, I need to resolve the lean running and use a suitable fuel additive, not for the octane but for lubrication purposes. Has anyone any further experience of additives please? I am not sure that the fuel catalyst type will help this problem. Of course, I may be barking up the wrong tree! Steve

Thanks everyone for so much good, constructive and helpful comment. It is very easy to get despondent when one has spent an hour swinging on the handle, the lorry is beside the road and still won't go and you've got to get in the car for a four hour run back home. I am going to make a new impulse trigger for the spare mag (whilst the same model as before, it is not quite the same!) and plan to have another go next weekend if I can get down. I will keep you all posted with the results. Cheers! Steve

The FWD should have a 'Pierce' governor. This operates with bob weights inside a casing driven by a flexible drive from the cam shaft. They operate a butterfly between the carburettor and the inlet manifold. Cheers! Steve

Thanks for that. That is the best fuel mix description I have ever come across! That gives us another string to our bow after I have tried the new mag. Cheers! Steve

This lorry has no head gaskets so that is one problem eliminated! Compression is fine with none of the cylinders leaking. (One advantage of a hand-cranked engine!). I have also checked the tappet clearance on the inlet side to make sure the valves are opening fully and they are OK too. I need to look at the exhaust side but couldn't get in on Sunday as the toolbox is in the way. Something to check next time. Cheers! Steve

Not sure about plugs as I just don't have enough knowledge. I would expect them to be fairly insensitive as the engine only runs at 1400rpm on a compression ratio of 4:1 but I would be very pleased to hear some advice. Going from memory, they are new Champion C5, 18mm and WD stamped! Steve

Hi Richard. The heat problem seems to be a feature of the layout of the lorry. The rad and fan are at the front but the engine is under the seat so there is no air flow past it at all. The tank is on top gravity feeding through copper pipe and a big brass filter all within the engine space so it has a lot of opportunity to get hot. My trial cure was to run a plastic hose around the outside and up underneath and this seemed to sort it. If it should prove to be a major part of the solution, I will run a copper pipe outside the engine space and up under the chassis just next to the carb. It won't be as original but an acceptable fix, I think. I had thought about wrapping the pipe inside the bay but am concerned about forming a wick to soak up leaking fuel. I really don't want to add to the fire risk if I can help it! I have spoken with a variety of veteran vehicle people but none have come up with this trouble. Even our Autocars seem to be completely immune to any effects of changing the fuel so I am beginning to think there is another problem as well. I am suspicious of the magneto and would like to try our spare. Unfortunately, I just ran out of time on Sunday as I had to drive back. It really is a pain living 200 miles from our project! Cheers! Steve

Hi Chaps! I have just spent the weekend in Devon trying to get the thing to go properly but with little success. This is the story so far: As I recall (and no doubt Tim will be able to correct me!) After some initial fiddling and messing, we finally got the lorry to go well on leaded four-star after we first rebuilt it. For two years or so, it was fine and behaved as one might expect. The change to LRP didn't faze it and we were fine. Then, we were forced to go over to unleaded at which point (possibly coincidental) it became gutless and would not pull at all. Removal of the engine covers allowed a real wall of heat out and the fuel could be seen boiling in the float chamber (the float chamber is made of glass). We tried various ratios of paraffin mixed in but it never came back to its old self. At one of the local rallies, we plumbed in a separate tank of leaded fuel and then ran it around the field. It popped and banged terribly on unleaded but immediately recovered when we changed over to leaded and decayed again when we changed back. We have therefore reached the conclusion that fuel does have something to do with the problem. When Fathers car was converted over, they retarded the ignition. The timing on the lorry is manually adjustable from 5° retarded to 25° advanced so I retarded the ignition whilst it was running but achieved no noticeable effect. This weekend, I drained the tank and filled it with new fuel. I then carefully sealed the manifold joints and we ran it. The caburettor was immediately seen to start icing. We set off down the road and the performance was quite acceptable for a while. After about half a mile, as it all warmed up, the power began to decay noticeably and the lorry began to surge. In other words, it pulled well for a few revolutions and then died back and then the same again. With the icing carb and the surging, I diagnosed a lean mixture (do you agree?) and fitted a larger high speed jet. This got us home but was no real improvement. On Sunday morning, I put the original jets back and rigged up a separate fuel line outside the engine bay in order that the fuel was not heated. Another test run had it running pretty rough but the performance did not decay. From this, I think that fuel vapourisation may also be a part of the problem. I seem to recall that unleaded is more volatile than the old four star. Is this correct? At this point I took some advice and tried advancing the magneto one notch. We set off for another test run but it was awful. Continuous backfiring through the silencer (which we blew to pieces!) and total loss of power. I then returned the timing to what it had been but it was then even worse. At first, it would run on only one cylinder. Then it idled fine but as soon as any load came on, it suffered multiple mis-fires and could not move itself. After fooling around with it for a couple of hours, we towed it home with the Land Rover. It is currently parked outside as it requires power to move it into the shed. I originally thought fuel was the problem but am now beginning to think the magneto might be weak. The mis-firing under load could be an indication of this. Next time we go out, I intend to fit our spare mag but in the mean time, I would be very pleased to hear your views. The knowledge is out there! Cheers! Steve

Sadly, we don't as they are missing on ours as well. I made up a dummy extension to go between the carb and the manifold but it has no butterfly. Mind you, I am not too troubled about having one as I understand that they make the lorry a pig to drive! Steve

Well done Norman. It is great to see the detail of the restoration. It is the hours of work which go into bits like this which are just not recognised. Keep up the good work! Steve

I'm pleased to see it being looked after. The trouble is that it absorbs so much money and labour. I spent a day on the brasswork and ended up with green hands and by the following day the shine had gone again. An old marine engineer once said to me that 'a metal is something that corrodes in contact with sea water' and I think he was right! Steve

You are very kind. However, we are just enjoying a completely pointless pastime in the best way we know! Cheers! Steve

Thanks, I shall look forward to seeing the notes. In my youth, I used to act as engine or boiler room hand (greaser or stoker to you nautical types!) on the Royal Naval Museum's steam picket boat 198 which had a very similar engine by Mumford. The main difference was that it had a wet sump and the mechanism was closed in which helped things along greatly. In typical steam boat fashion, it had a huge low-speed propellor. If I remember correctly, it was 2' 9" diameter but at 13 knots, it was doing only 120rpm. At that speed, the out-of-balance forces were so much that the bottom of the boat used to bounce and you could feel the deck plates moving up and down. If on the engine, I would throttle back a bit until it stopped as I really didn't want the engine falling through into the 'oggin with me after it! Oh, happy days. 198 can be seen in the mast pond on the rhs as you go through Unicorn gate into Portsmouth Dockyard. Steve

Back to the photo, where is that engine? It looks like it is plumbed in to run so must be a museum somewhere. Is it a picket boat engine as it looks like the right size? Steve

Yes, we could do that too although I would be a bit concerned that it might move once the sleeve began to heat up during braking which is a problem they had on the railways, I understand. Steve

Thanks for the suggestion. We did have metal spraying up our sleeves as a final solution but thought that a simple skim would sort it out well enough. I have only seen the photographs above but I think that although it appears a bit poxy there is enough shiny metal there to avoid any serious damage to the linings. After all, the normal service brake is the hand brake and the pedal operated transmission brake is always described as the 'emergency brake' in the manual, so it shouldn't get much use. Incidentally, does anyone know when the foot brake became the service brake and what instituted the change? Steve

The Sentinel Standard Waggon has plain bronze bearings with grease lubrication. It is also quite a heavy machine compared with a petrol wagon (the main downside of steamers) so I don't expect that the vibration of a donkey engine would cause it much trouble. Steve

Bringing this topic vaguely back in the military direction, my science master in the late 1970s used to line up various implements on the front desk at the beginning of the lesson with the threat he would break one by the end. There would be a plimsole, a ruler and a paddle with handle. Funny thing is, it was always treated as a joke and we all had the greatest respect for the guy. This went up when we found out that he had been a POW in the Second War. I found out that he had been a Wellington bomber pilot so I asked what he thought of them. 'Didn't fly high enough or fast enough' was the short answer! From another source, I picked up that he had escaped from camp and stolen a motor cycle only to be recaptured on the Swiss border. From such stuff are heroes made. Steve

The fire pump engine had a complete clutch of a later type than the lorry so whilst some bits are common, some are not. We have some of the correct bits and could, probably, lash up something that will work. However, as we will have to make quite a few bits, we might as well make them to be correct for the vehicle and so that is the plan. The main clutch cone is in super condition and won't even need re-lining. Father has already made a new clutch release shaft and I have completed the clutch brake shoes and part of the release linkage. However, I am still not quite sure what we actually have so the next job for me will be to lay it all out on the ground and assess the job. We are fortunate that we have an original assembly drawing so I can draw up the bits from that and we can make them up between us. All good fun. Steve