Grumpy

No it’s a DVLA cash extraction. The ones that have gone to court where the DVLA have lost, the judge has stated it’s not lawful for the DVLA to impose the owner to check if the SORN was received or not. The onus is on the DVLA to contact you if they haven’t received your SORN. The penalty can be imposed if you do not SORN, however if the DVLA lose the paperwork or their database is incorrect it’s their problem. I have had lots of problems in the past with DVLA, SORN and fines, never paid a fine and since I SORN my vehicles directly with the Secretary of State have never received anything from the DVLA regarding these fines. They are banking on bullying people into paying these penalties, as I have stated elsewhere there is existing case law that shows the DVLA are acting unlawfully regarding these penalties. You need a court of law to enforce any penalty, as this is a civil matter it would be the county court.

I think it’s a bit more complicated than that. My understanding is, to drive a vehicle on the road firstly it must be taxed and secondly the driver has to have third party insurance cover to drive that vehicle. It’s the driver that has to be insured not the vehicle. For example a motor trader will have insurance to drive a number of vehicles; however the vehicles won’t be insured individually and will show up on the insurance database as uninsured. So long as they are taxed he is perfectly legal to drive that vehicle. Another example is my car ad bike insurance covers me to drive vehicles not belonging to me on a third party basis. Last year I borrowed a bike belonging to a friend for a trip to Wales, I got pulled over by the police as the bike was coming up as uninsured on the database. I produced my insurance which showed I was insured to ride a bike belonging to someone else, the police were quite happy and off I went. Are you saying that this new legislation now means it’s the car that has to be insured not the driver?

Did you pay the fines?

One problem is DVLA is incapable of maintaining an accurate database. My main gripe is with agencies such as the DVLA enhancing legislation with such things as illegal fines and renewing SORN’s each year. I really cannot see the need to renew a SORN each year, especially when the legislation laid down by the government doesn’t call for it. You SORN your vehicle when you take it off the road, and tax it when you put it back on the road, doesn’t matter to a database the length of interval between, whether its 3 months or six years. The only reason the DVLA make work for themselves by renewing each year is to make money from fines, when that route is exhausted because its illegal they will start charging an admin fee. I know I have to comply with government legislation, but I am certainly not giving money away to private agencies such as the DVLA without good reason. There is not a piece of government legislation that states you have to uses the SERVICES of the DVLA, however most do for convenience, the more people that stop using their service and deal direct with the government the better. Especially if they express their dissatisfaction with services provided they the governments nominated privately run agency.

SORN fines are illegal; there is case law to back this up. The most important thing to do if you receive a fine notification is to dispute it, while the matter is in dispute it is illegal for the DVLA to pass collection onto any third parties such as debt collectors. To dispute the fine send something along the lines of; By virtue of the fact that the DVLA method of trial is a computer database and the postal system, I consider that the DVLA is acting Ultra Vires by attempting to extort monies from me without due legal process, as is my right under article 6 of the human rights convention and under the Bill of rights 1689. The DVLA is not a Court of Law nor is it a competent authority for the following reasons: Article 6 of the given European Convention on Human Rights provides that "In the determination of his civil rights and obligations or of any criminal charge against him, everyone is entitled to a fair and public hearing within a reasonable time by an independent and impartial tribunal established by law. Judgment shall be pronounced publicly but the press and public may be excluded from all or part of the trial in the interests of morals, public order or national security in a democratic society, where the interests of juveniles or the protection of the private life of the parties so require, or to the extent strictly necessary in the opinion of the court in special circumstances where publicity would prejudice the interests of justice." The said appeals service offered by the said DVLA is not established in accordance with law, as required by the said Article 6 of the European Convention on Human Rights - in that: The basic laws of the United Kingdom as provided within the Common Law of the Kingdom of England with the Principality of Wales and the province of Northern Ireland, and as further enacted by the Crown and Parliament of the United Kingdom to the purpose of establishing and preserving the Civil Liberties of all people living within the territories of the United Kingdom which Common Law may not be repealed and which Statute Law remains un-repealed have been and are now being violated by the provisions of such enactment as now claims to provide lawful authority for the existence and conduct of the DVLA, but which fails to provide any such lawful authority, because of the given violations to Constitutional Laws and Provisions which retain the force of law. In evidence of the submission given, a full reference is made to the text of the Common Law Charter of King Henry III, dated 1225 (the existence of which Charter is now evidenced by the text of the 1297 enactment of King Edward I and his parliament), and a further full reference is made to the several texts of the Declaration & Bill of Rights (variously dated February & December of 1689) which latter documents now serve to define and restrict the powers of the Crown in Parliament, to the purpose of preserving Peaceful Government under the Rule of Law, Article 234 (formerly Article 177), of the Treaty establishing the legal entity that is now known as the European Union now provides that the European Court of Justice shall have jurisdiction to give preliminary rulings concerning the interpretation of the Treaty; the validity and interpretation of acts (entered into) by the institutions of the Community and/or by the European Bank; the interpretation of the statutes of bodies established by an act of the Council, where those statutes so provide. Where such a question is raised before any court or tribunal of a Member State, that court or tribunal may, if it considers that a decision on the question is necessary to enable it to give judgment, request the Court of Justice to give a ruling thereon. Where any such question is raised in a case pending before a court or tribunal of a Member State against whose decisions there is no judicial remedy under national law, that court or tribunal shall bring the matter before the Court of Justice. Magna Carta of 1225, confirmed by the Statute of 1297. "We will not pass upon him, nor [condemn him], but by lawful judgment of his peers, or by the Law of the Land." I contend that the clear option as to method of trial is an option that belongs to me as my property, and that title to this property is confirmed by the Confirmation of Liberties given in Magna Carta- "We have granted also, and given to all the Freemen of our Realm, for Us and our Heirs for ever, these Liberties underwritten, to have and to hold to them and their Heirs, of Us and our Heirs for ever" I also contend that the substantive law relevant to this hearing is further declared by the provisions of the Declaration of Rights and further secured by the Bill of Rights subsequently enacted - "That all grants and promises of fines and forfeitures of particular persons before conviction are illegal and void" As such, I do not recognise the DVLA’s authority to issue penalties/fines nor have I had a trial within a competent criminal Court to find guilt under a section 31A offence of not procuring a vehicle license. Should the DVLA insist on pursuing this unlawful course of action, then I request that you refer the matter to the European Court of Justice under article 234 Just fill in the gaps with your details :-D

They are acting illegally; just send a letter back containing the following: By virtue of the fact that the DVLA method of trial is a computer database and the postal system, I consider that the DVLA is acting Ultra Vires by attempting to extort monies from me without due legal process, as is my right under article 6 of the human rights convention and under the Bill of rights 1689. The DVLA is not a Court of Law nor is it a competent authority for the following reasons: Article 6 of the given European Convention on Human Rights provides that "In the determination of his civil rights and obligations or of any criminal charge against him, everyone is entitled to a fair and public hearing within a reasonable time by an independent and impartial tribunal established by law. Judgment shall be pronounced publicly but the press and public may be excluded from all or part of the trial in the interests of morals, public order or national security in a democratic society, where the interests of juveniles or the protection of the private life of the parties so require, or to the extent strictly necessary in the opinion of the court in special circumstances where publicity would prejudice the interests of justice." The said appeals service offered by the said DVLA is not established in accordance with law, as required by the said Article 6 of the European Convention on Human Rights - in that: The basic laws of the United Kingdom as provided within the Common Law of the Kingdom of England with the Principality of Wales and the province of Northern Ireland, and as further enacted by the Crown and Parliament of the United Kingdom to the purpose of establishing and preserving the Civil Liberties of all people living within the territories of the United Kingdom which Common Law may not be repealed and which Statute Law remains un-repealed have been and are now being violated by the provisions of such enactment as now claims to provide lawful authority for the existence and conduct of the DVLA, but which fails to provide any such lawful authority, because of the given violations to Constitutional Laws and Provisions which retain the force of law. In evidence of the submission given, a full reference is made to the text of the Common Law Charter of King Henry III, dated 1225 (the existence of which Charter is now evidenced by the text of the 1297 enactment of King Edward I and his parliament), and a further full reference is made to the several texts of the Declaration & Bill of Rights (variously dated February & December of 1689) which latter documents now serve to define and restrict the powers of the Crown in Parliament, to the purpose of preserving Peaceful Government under the Rule of Law, Article 234 (formerly Article 177), of the Treaty establishing the legal entity that is now known as the European Union now provides that the European Court of Justice shall have jurisdiction to give preliminary rulings concerning the interpretation of the Treaty; the validity and interpretation of acts (entered into) by the institutions of the Community and/or by the European Bank; the interpretation of the statutes of bodies established by an act of the Council, where those statutes so provide. Where such a question is raised before any court or tribunal of a Member State, that court or tribunal may, if it considers that a decision on the question is necessary to enable it to give judgment, request the Court of Justice to give a ruling thereon. Where any such question is raised in a case pending before a court or tribunal of a Member State against whose decisions there is no judicial remedy under national law, that court or tribunal shall bring the matter before the Court of Justice. Magna Carta of 1225, confirmed by the Statute of 1297. "We will not pass upon him, nor [condemn him], but by lawful judgment of his peers, or by the Law of the Land." I contend that the clear option as to method of trial is an option that belongs to me as my property, and that title to this property is confirmed by the Confirmation of Liberties given in Magna Carta- "We have granted also, and given to all the Freemen of our Realm, for Us and our Heirs for ever, these Liberties underwritten, to have and to hold to them and their Heirs, of Us and our Heirs for ever" I also contend that the substantive law relevant to this hearing is further declared by the provisions of the Declaration of Rights and further secured by the Bill of Rights subsequently enacted - "That all grants and promises of fines and forfeitures of particular persons before conviction are illegal and void" As such, I do not recognise the DVLA’s authority to issue penalties/fines nor have I had a trial within a competent criminal Court to find guilt under a section 31A offence of not procuring a vehicle license. Should the DVLA insist on pursuing this unlawful course of action, then I request that you refer the matter to the European Court of Justice under article 234 Taken from another site but good enough to make them think, I’ll see if I can dig out the relevant case law against DVLA.

Double post

The SI that covers SORN states you have inform the Secretary of State when you take a registered vehicle off the road and will not be taxing it. The SI also states that you MAY use one of his agents i.e. DVLA to do this. There is no requirement in the SI to renew the SORN each year, that’s just a money spinning exercise introduced by the DVLA who are a private body acting as agents for the government. However once you have signed the DVLA SORN form you are entering into contract with them to renew each year, however as the form does not contain full discloser the contract can be voided. After DVLA constantly losing paperwork on my vehicles and sending out illegal fine notices, I wrote to the Secretary of State stating which of my vehicles will be off the road and untaxed until further notice due to them undergoing restoration, I also aired my views regarding his agent’s incompetence. I had a very polite letter back acknowledging the off road status of my vehicles and they would investigate my comments regarding the DVLA. Its bad enough being ripped off with government taxes, but when private bodies such as the DVLA start, enough is enough. There have been at least three instances of case law against the DVLA for sending out fines for not renewing a SORN, yet they keep sending them out. If you do happen to get one, write back to them straight away saying you dispute the fine, while its in dispute it is illegal for them to pass it on to a debt collector. There only course of action is to take you to court, but as there is already case law in place that they are acting illegally they wont bother. As Rob says legislation can change, but get the change from the horses mouth and read the SI to see what you must legally comply with, don't just go along with what some private agency are telling you. Sorry rant over, but please don’t be sheep being herded along by private agencies who are just after your hard earned cash.

Basic show website is up and running just a few pages and the remainder of last years gallery to finish. Have a look here: tankstrucksandfirepower.co.uk Haven’t played with html before so it’s been a steep learning curve to say the least, but we are nearly there now. Please post any comments or improvements about the web site, but remember it’s my first attempt so nothing too complicated please. You will be able to download all the booking in forms by the end of this week, and will be able to book vehicles in online from the 1st of Feb; I’ll keep you informed via this thread. Sorry for the double posting in the other thread :angel:

Basic show website is up and running just a few pages and the remainder of last years gallery to finish. Have a look here: tankstrucksandfirepower.co.uk Haven’t played with html before so it’s been a steep learning curve to say the least, but we are nearly there now. Please post any comments or improvements about the web site, but remember it’s my first attempt so nothing too complicated please. You will be able to download all the booking in forms by the end of this week, and will be able to book vehicles in online from the 1st of Feb; I’ll keep you informed via this thread.

Hi Clive and welcome, Managed to lose you number - See your PM's

Sorry folks, Phil has just popped in and told me the web site is down, off to do the hospital run now, but I'll jump on it as soon as I am back.

You mean not just yanking it back over and onto its wheels then :blush:

Bridle on the Jate Rings

Are you having problems selecting on the move or when stationary? Will it select second with the engine stopped?

Bit of footage I haven’t seen before, it’s amazing where these clips keep coming from http://www.britishpathe.com/record.php?id=62751 Some really interesting stuff there, partially like the Light Footed Lorry testing procedure

Its your own fault, I've told you before about little fingers and that bottle of glue :-D

Cosrec isn't the only one on here doing recovery for a living but he talks a lot of sense. However what works in the commercial sector doesn't necessary work with MV's. There are quite a few MV's that will not sustain heavy recovery from the axle's and this should be a last resort. Most MV's will be open enough to get a pull around the chassis legs, again its mainly the newer commercial trucks that you cannot get a pull around the chassis. The chassis or axles may not be up to the pull and you have got to do a bit of digging first. As Mike says each incident has to be weighed up, and if you are not competent to do that then you shouldn't be attempting the recovery in the first place. If its your truck you are recovering and there is no one else around its your choice. If the truck belongs to someone else and/or other people are around and you haven't done that type of recovery before then leave it. Sorry to be hard but it doesn't take long to rip an axle or twist a chassis rail on someone's pride and joy and probably even quicker to injure someone.

Agreed - imagine dragging a bogged FH70 by the axles :nut: Snap!

What size / weight etc.

I may be stupid but I am not doing this: http://www.ebaumsworld.com/video/watch/81103313/ Climbed a few towers in my time but nothing like this Sorry if its in the wrong section

Autohome have expanded their policy offerings this year, they now cover much heaver vehicles and trailers now. Try giving them a call

Its quite easy to read Law from a book, its the application and understanding of Law that takes talent. :nut:

Is a gun a trailer then? Can't any one advise on the licence required as this was the question posed by the originator of this post.

Both Constructors still there and not as rough as they look, the Cyprus Constructor is still for sale, If anyone is interested PM me and I can put you in touch with Steve. Only junk got weighed in, Steve still has lots of toys.