AlienFTM

Our "A" Squadron had Fox in Tidworth in 1976 - 77. We had returned from Northern Ireland after years in the Armour role and were in the throes of converting to Recce. "B" Sqn had Scorpion; "C" Sqn, in Cyprus, had Ferrets. There was driver training and gunnery training going on apace. A friend and another young lad were out on the Driver Training Area outside the back of our barracks, learning how to handle obstacles (knife edges, steep inclines, ditches, water, etc) under instruction. My friend floored it and raced at an incline (maybe 50%?). Halfway up he had to change down. He'd correctly preselected the lower gear and pressed the Gear Change Pedal, but not confidently enough and the gearbox found a false neutral. Fox started racing backwards down the incline very quickly. The commander saw what was coming and knew that if the Fox was left to roll, it would come to a safe halt by itself. He grabbed the mike and told the driver, "DON'T HIT THE BRAKE!" but the ancient Larkspur radio didn't react quickly enough (or his mouth was in gear before the prestel finger) and the driver missed the first word. He slammed the brake on. The Fox is still going backwards downhill at a frightening rate, the back wheels bite (in the opposite way to the front wheels when you lock your car up) and Fox rolls ... END OVER END. The commander is a professional and simply ducks inside. The driver is fairly well protected by the Rarden cannon, though he ended up one of the last inmates of Tidworth Military Hospital before it closed with some nasty-looking superficial injuries. The sprog second trainee tries to climb out and jump for it ... He only got halfway. Not a pretty site.

You have to excuse this noob to the scene. I presume from checking the RAC route finder that this is Stoneleigh, CV8, not Stoneleigh KT19? I also presume you'd need driver / commander for loading at Nottingham? I would really love to get back into the driver's or commander's seat of a Spartan, and although I have never had the pleasure of a Fox, I presume it isn't a world away from a Ferret ("the best ride you'll ever have")? I can even claim to have experience of the Mk5 Ferret (ATGM version) which most resembles Fox. I'd imagine the steel armour of the Mk 5 Ferret makes it a heavier drive than the Fox? If you are really, really stuck and the dates work (and She Who Must Be Obeyed unlocks the ball and chain), I'd be delighted to help out. HTH

In the Armd Recce Regt of the late 70s, 7 was a spare callsign, either at the beginning or the end. For example in 1976, our B Sqn used the 2 series when stationed in Omagh AND the 7 series when based in St Angelo near Enniskillen. When I did my Con Sig in 1978, FAC (correct = Forward Air Controller) had no designated callsign (we had UHF sets for them but these never left the store and were never powered up). As for the Golf prefix. Like I said earlier in the thread, most units had essentially the same callsign designations. By the late 1970s BAOR started to work in Battlegroups: mixed groups of RAC and infantry units with artillery, engineer etc attachments, all based on a Regiment / Battalion HQ. The Combat Team was the same concept on order of magnitude smaller, based upon a Squadron / Company HQ. These Battlegroups and Combat Teams were not fixed in their orbat and squadrons and troops were reassigned as required. Thus you might have, for example, B Sqn 15/19th The King's Royal Hussars Combat Team with a platoon of B Coy 1 Black Watch, a battery commander assigned from 39 Field Regt RA and a Striker (Swingfire ATGM) Troop from B Battery 3 RHA. So, does 24 refer to 4 Tp B Sqn 19/19H, 4 Pln B Coy 1 BW, 4 Section B Battery 39 Fd Regt RA or to the RHA. And a helicopter from the AAC (6 was the recce callsign, so in Omagh the helicopters of Air Squadron on regimental strength were the 6 series of callsigns). Solution? In these circumstances, each callsign would be prefixed with an Arm Indicator thus: India = Infantry Kilo = Infantry alternate (not required in this case) Tango = RAC (~= Tank but included Recce) Uniform = RAC alternate Golf = RA (~= Guns) Whiskey = RA alternate (necessary in the above example to avoid a clash of RA callsigns) Alpha = Aviation Bravo = Airborne or Special Forces - hence Bravo 20 but see note. The above was the callsign order on a mixed net (but note that host units answered up first, this sequence notwithstanding, so that for example on a B Sqn 15/19H Combat Team net an all stations radio check would see the T2s, T21s, T22s, T23s, T24s, T26s, T28s, T29s THEN I2, I21 etc, G2 etc, W2 etc, A21 if there was a helicopter then anything else would answer up in alphanumerical order. By the time of the fundamental Voice Procedure change of 1982 discussed in my earlier post, it had been noted that there was a security issue to be addressed. The Arm Indicator was replaced by a daily changing prefix for all callsigns, so that at 2359 on one day, I might be Romeo24, then a minute later when the codes and frequencies changed I might be Juliet24. Note that at the same time the Army finally decided that midnight DID exist and defined midnight as 0000 Hrs on the second day and a Defence Council Instruction was issued defining midnight. Until this time, the Army clock went from 2359 to 0001 to avoid any confusion over WHICH midnight applied. Previously, if a time of midnight was necessary, it was referred to as midnight and qualified to avoid confusion. HTH

That may very well be how it is done now. In the 1970s at least until 1982 when there was a fundamental change in voice procedure, it was the other way round. If 24 was away, his vehicle became Zulu24. ;o)

Or ask me. I served in a Recce Regiment 1975 - 82 and specialised as a Control Signaller. Callsigns varied only slightly within teeth arm major units due to their orders of battle, but the Con Sig needed to know for those times when Armour, Infantry, Artillery, Engineers, Aviation, etc were attached to us and vice versa. Note that in our unit, callsigns were detachable so that for instance, should the Troop Leader find himself without a vehicle, he could usurp another in his troop and not have to repaint the whole vehicle. Details (for CVR(T)) on request. ;o) Neil A

In my time, Triangle = A Sqn, Coy, etc Square = B Circle = C Diamond = HQ

When you say a segmented circle, do you mean a complete circle in four segments or a semi-circle, flat side up? A circle indicates "C" Squadron / Company / Battery etc. It is segmented purely because it is painted on by stencil. A semi-circle probably means the vehicle was assigned to an independent unit. The writing on the side - could it have been chalked on? It might have read, for example, VOR BRAKES (Vehicle off the road because its brakes are broke). Or BLR (Beyond Local Repair)? BER (Beyond Economic Repair)? In 1977, when collecting Ferrets and Saracens from the depot at Moenchengladbach, there was a line of Ferrets with BAOR OVERLOAD stencilled on. IIRC they they were in an unusual camouflage sceme of light brown / olive and were to be shipped out of theatre. Hope this helps.

Something to bear in mind. Presumably you are aware that it has a preselective (semi-automatic) gearbox - I drove it on my automatic car licence, though I think the laws may well have changed. Anyway, when you change gear, you don't allow the clutch back out gently (primarily because it isn't a clutch: it's a Gear Change Pedal or GCP), that's what the fluid flywheel is for. When you initiate a gear change, give the GCP a good smack: don't mollycoddle it. If you treat the GCP gently, you increase the risk of finding a false neutral, and the GCP will extend so far, so fast and so hard that it'll push your left knee almost into your chest and stick there. You need to spend some time and effort trying to find a gear, at the same time steering the Saracen which continues to hurtle down the road (it may be only 20mph but it's a lot of kinetic energy!). Also because of the six wheels and the primitive power steering, I found that keeping it on the straight and narrow ... errr straight and wide as a battleship ... was best achieved by actually working the bus-like steering wheel back and forth against the power steering in the manner of any Hollywood star driving up a dead straight, dead smooth road. You'll also find the six wheels render sleeping policemen irrelevant. I discovered that the first time I ever drove a military vehicle (a Ferret, following a Saracen on the streets and lanes of West Tyrone). The Saracen APC, leading, went past an RUC station flat out, round the oil drum chicane and over the sleeping policemen. I, in the Ferret, knowing no better, lined up to do likewise. I heard a strange whining from behind me just as we hit the first sleeping policeman. As we landed, having cleared the rest of the sleeping policemen, I realised that it was my commander, who'd just worked out what I was going to do.

I was browsing in Waterstones before Christmas and spotted this book on the shelf. I read it nearly 30 years ago (so I am working from memory here) and was pleasantly surprised to see it back in print. If you've ever read the works of Sven Hassel and wondered what it was really like on the Russian Front during WW2, this book is for you. It records the author's story of his time in the elite Großdeutschland Panzergrenadierdivision. I cannot really recall much detail except how it was so cold dug in that whenever anybody needed a slash, they all gathered round to get the warmth of his urine into his hands. I am cold just thinking about it. Should have put it on my Christmas wish list. (

It was probably Winter 1979-80. Guard duty came round as it did without fail. The guard comprised Guard Commander and NCO I/C Marching Reliefs (his 2IC) and nine Troopers: three to guard the main gate and six to prowl in pairs, two hours on, four off. It was cold that night. So cold that the first gate guard was mounted at 1800 as usual and the remaining eight Troopers quickly scanned the camp to verify that the perimater was intact and the hangar doors locked. After 20 minutes, the gate guard was relieved. For the only time in 14 years, the three stags were reorganised. Instead of having three on stag for 2 hours on, 4 off with two prowling and one on the gate, we did 20 minutes on, 40 minutes off to defrost (only guarding the main gate) for two hours then had four hours off. It was decided that more than 20 minutes on stag would leave the Guard Commander with very frozen Troopers and there was more danger to their lives than there was of some nutcase getting up to mischief in this cold. The man on the gate was given a parka and all sorts of extra kit to get him through his 20 minutes. And the Guard Commander or I/C Tea Leafs (as we called him) would bring him a tea or coffee halfway through his stag (every ten minutes). Following morning, BFBS Radio reported that there was a massive anticyclone centred over Sennelager and that Paderborn was therefore the coldest city in Europe at minus 40 (at minus 40 the Fahrenheit and Centrgrade scales coincide). I therefore posit another claim to fame (see that thread, that I was once the coldest person in Europe. I always laugh when (like now) the UK suffers a few degrees of frost and a dusting of snow. And those troops who froze in Russia get my utmost respect.

I seem to recall once reading that at the height of its mechanisation in 1943, the Wehrmacht was only 50% mechanised.

Maybe not entirely on-topic, but if you visit Tenby in SW Wales, you can take a day trip to Caldey Island. Depending on the tide, you may be ferried to/from the boat at the island end by a Stolly. Surprised me and my family when I took them. that these people have a Stolly that works, never mind floats. If you can get in touch, these people may be of use. ;o)

Must have been 1982. Must have been about February. Regiment was at firing Camp at Hohne Ranges in West Germany. I commanded a Sultan ACV. German law precluded firing at weekends; it also precluded movements of heavies and tracks on public roads at weekends. Through Sunday we exercised as we always had. When it got dark, because there were no locals to crash into us, we were able to practise movement in the dark, It was decided that among other things we'd do a running replen at NBC red in electronic silence at the centre of the range. (The ranges were arranged in a circle, firing into the middle.) There was no moon and it was blacker than the inside of a black thing. We arrived at the replen easily enough on the back of Two Alpha's convoy light and replenned. We had to be safe behind the firing point by about 0600 so the ranges could be opened for Monday's shoots and time was tight My driver was less than confident about the journey back out. Our destination was actually only about one degree (grid) West of North and we were following a straight, metalled road out, lined with trees. I climbed out of the cupola, down onto the engine decks beside his hatch, still in full Noddy kit and respirator (luckily, being FHQ, we were blessed with Clansman NBC adaptors for our S6 respirators, so speech wasn't unduly muffled). There may have been no moon, but away from civilisation the crisp night air was clear enough to show Polaris in the North. I demonstrated to him how perspective causes trees lining a narrow road to form a V between sky and ground, disappearing to a point on the horizon. The trees notwithstanding, I claim to be the only person ever to have astrogated an armoured vehicle successfully. ---ooo0ooo--- If you watched Robot Wars, I believe it was the second series was recording at Earls Court the day I took my then young son to the Tomorrow's World Exhibition at Earls Court. They got people out to warm the audience up, explaining how to behave when something ended in the Pit for example and they played the three sides off against one-another to see who could be most enthusiastic and make the most noise. From my years on the terraces and in an effort to demonstrate to my nipper that I am not a boring old fart, I was up and screaming with the best of them. Then the fighting started and everyone sat there, engrossed. there was no shouting and screaming as everyone was watching fascinated. This was why there'd been the warm-up. We took to videoing Robot Wars every Friday night and very week the same clip of me standing and leading the shouting in the warm-up was played as if we were cheering a result. Sometimes I got the same clip two or three times in one night! So if you have any videos of Robot Wars and the crowds scenes are dominated by a bloke of a certain age in a leather coat, dark cap (I fear I had also forgotten to change out of me sunglasses), that's me.

Richard, I've just realised that I misread this when you posted it. (I read "aerial tube.") FWIW, if the rear antenna base was heavier made, it shouts FOREIGN at me. As I said previously, ISTR the C13 antenna base (Larkspur HF) was similar to the Clansman (though the more I think about it, the more I think it was similar to a VHF antenna base, but earthed differently). A Larkspur VHF antenna base was a simple inverted cone about the same height as your front antenna base and therefore smaller overall than Clansman. ISTR that, like the Ferret, Larkspur dated back to the 50s, so I cannot envisage any other UK radio sets being fitted. On our UNFICYP tour, two or three times per week a section from the troop based in Nicosia to cover BritCon West (out beyond the disused Nicosia airport) would carry out a patrol in the CanCon (Canadian Contingent) sector. Canadian sets were entirely different from ours, so a kit was produced to enable the section commander's B set to be replaced by a Canadian set which fitted onto a tray on top of the A set behind the commander's seat. This required an antenna base unit compatible with the Canadian set. It must have been HF, because the ABU mounted a huge semi-flexible antenna, so long that we mounted the ABU on the engine rear plate by removing a bolt or two and rebolting it through the ABU mount. Then we pulled the antenna forward and attached it somehow (I forget after 30 years) to the front of the vehicle in a giant curve over the top, reminiscent in a way of what you often see on SdKfz 251 halftrack command vehicles. At the end of the patrol, I detached the Canadian set and reattached and wired in the B set. Then I undid the bolt holding the ABU onto the engine plate. Sadly without undoing the front end. Under enormous tension, the ABU whipped up and smacked my finger hard enough to need stitches. Lesson learned. It gave me an excuse not to drive for a week. Because a commander had broken his nose a la Mick McCarthey about the same time ("I slipped climbing into my Ferret, honest") and was put on light duties, I got to play at commander for a week, which was nice.

Funnily enough, just this morning I discussed this on another thread. Our recce regiment deployed to BAOR in late 1977. All the vehicles carried a yellow bridge classification plate on the front. Every bridge and culvert in Germany carried a similar plate (though they might contain more information, giving a different classification for say tracks and wheels for example). In theory, you might expect a Military Policeman to be guarding a bridge. He would note the classification of the bridge, and if your vehicle surpassed the classification of the bridge, "thou shalt not pass." Needless to say, there never were MPs on bridges, but vehicle commanders were expected to obey the bridge classifications. Note that the number on the vehicle indicated its maximum tonnage. Not its dry weight, but the weight it might theoretically carry including fuel, ammo, trailer, squaddies, etc. Although a Scorpion weighed 7 - 8 tons IIRC, ISTR its bridge classification was 12. ISTR Ferret was 4 and Saracen ACV was 14, but a quick reference to a pic will put me right. Being a recce regt, we were way forward of where any MP might need to see our bridge classification in a hurry, so all vehicles had their bridge classifications painted out in grey to reduce the aiming mark, which was all the thing served for us anyway. They were still greyed out when I transferred out in 1982. On one occasion as a scout car commander, I was tasked to lead a packet of Command Troop vehicles across Soltau training area. Unfortunately nobody gave me a map with bridge classifications on. Every road I took toward our destination was classed okay for my Ferret but the Sultans were too heavy. We turned round and doubled back a handful of times before I was given a direct order to just cross the bridge and let a senior rank take the flak if it got out. ---ooo0ooo--- 6. I only once ever saw a named vehicle. In 1976 our "A" Squadron's Saracen ACV bore the legend GARFORTH VC. Google reveals: ISTR that further investigation which I haven't had time to corroborate here will show that he died in 1976.

Quite. For those of you who own British A vehicles, it is worth bearing in mind that the Royal Armoured Corps has / had very strong feelings about provocative poses like this. Namely DON'T. The CO of 4RTR, interviewing me about the prospect of becoming an RAC officer (I didn't - failed RCB), informed me that in the then recent Yom Kippur War, Israel's biggest casualty count came from sniped tank commanders. Furthermore, with only your head exposed, it is possible to survive rolling the vehicle. A friend of mine rolled a Fox on the driver training area in Tidworth in 1976. Driver and commander both got head inside. Gunner tried to climb out as it rolled and was cut in half. And with only your head exposed, you can read a map INSIDE the turret: map outside the turret is like a giant neon arrow to marauding FGAs overhead. Provocative poses like this are for amateurs, infantry and sprogs, but definitely NOT for professionals.

lol I spent a few months as Squadron Leader's LR driver, too early in my career and he thought I ought to be his batman. Mistake. I'll never forget the look on his face when I presented him with "Porridge" and I am sure we promptly set off to an O group where, out of sight of me, he wombled some "real breakfast." Had to agree about Chicken Extreme. If you didn't get it hot enough, the sauce remained like jelly. (It didn't actually taste too bad but it looked disgusting." So they replaced Chicken Extreme with "Chicken in Brown Sauce". Same recipe except that they added an Oxo cube to colour it.

PMSL The good news for you is that although I live in Southampton, the shirt is of a club which in theory ought to have been more a of a direct threat rather than local rivals to Pompey this season ... but has failed utterly.

No, no it may be entirely right that 5 was Size. I did say I was struggling to remember! Mind Size being fifth proves what they always say, "Size isn't everything." ;o)

Back at you mate. Yes, it occurred to me after I'd replied that you weren't really flaming me, so no umbrage taken (there hadn't been anyway). As you may by now have gathered, I was in recce, where cam (and radio)was everything. Got it! I have been sat here typing and with the rest of my brain trying to drag S.S.S.S & S from a remote recess. Shape Shine Shadow Silhouette Sound Or a meringue? (As we say where I come from: say it with a northern accent ;o)

What he said. ;o) FWIW in seven BAOR winters in the late 70s - early 80s, we got "Winter Cam" (a bucket of whitewash and a small square of white cam net) for our Scorpions for ONE exercise. We were instructed to paint the white over half the green, leaving a pattern 1/3 green, 1/3 black, 1/3 white.

This was a fact of necessity in 12 Hitler Jugend SS Panzer Division. Shipped to France upon mobilisation to defend against Overlord, there were problems getting sufficient tank crew uniforms and there was a surplus of U-Boot uniform in the Biscay ports, so it was normal for HJ crews to kit themselves out in U-Boot uniforms. That said, long term I don't think leather is particularly suitable for either role.

Fair point. Takes it on the chin. I stand corrected in my surgical boots. ;o)

DMS would be good. As another poster states, you ought to wear puttees with DMS but you could get away without if you wear long lightweights, since puttees were time-consuming in the putting on (though remarkably comfortable once on). In NI there wasn't much standing on ceremony (if you'll pardon the pun): it was about getting the job done: they'd rather you were in the back of the Pig in your shreddies than in your room still getting dressed. Besides: There were Northern Ireland Patrol Boots available for issue. In 1976 on my Scorpion Gunner course, I met a Life Guards Corporal of Horse who was trialling Boots, Combat, High. He informed me that they had been in design for seven years and the prototypes he wore bore a strong resemblance to Boots, NI and Boots Jungle without the breathing panels. When we went to the Falklands, the Boots CH had still not been perfected and issued, we lost more troops to trench foot from the DMS than Argie fire, and Boots CH were rushed into service some 14 years after going into design. And they were a disaster until the Mk2 design came out. You could get your DMS extended by a cobbler, if not in NI, certainly in Cyprus, for wear not on parade where they would be tolerated. You could get a cobbler (again esp in Cyprus) to create DMS clones with an extra couple of inches. The cobbler nearest to the UNFICYP Force Reserve Squadron in Nicosia could do you a very nice, very high pair of DMS lookalikes with a zip up the inside to save having to lace them up in a hurry. You could wear just about any other pair of black boots that looked remotely like DMS. Between 1977 and 1980, in search of better boots than DMS in BAOR (in command Troop where you might think the incidence of very senior ranks might make non-uniformity an issue), I wore US Army boots (they may have been comfortable to people they fit, but Americans have narrow feet and mine are exceedingly wide. I wore helicopter pilot boots (swapped them with my scout car commander and regimental signals sergeat). And I wore jackboots. Honestly. Not WW2 jackboots, but sheepskin-lined Bundeswehr Panzerstiefel (tank boots). Doc Martins were never approved, and Jack boots weren't approved in NI, but you can argue the case for just about anything else. (I was new and young in NI in early 1976 and wore what was issued). Come to think of it IIRC wellies were an issue item for plodging in the bogs. Headgear would be a marron Para beret. NOTHING else would be appropriate. And the only truly correct one would be bought from Victor's of Aldershot, where the Paras were based. Any soldier who visited Aldershot might lay out the cost of a Victor's beret, as they were by far the best shape of beret anywhere. Kangol were standard issue and they were frankly awful. Finding a Compton-Webb beret in the right size available for exchange from the QM Store was wonderful. In the 1970s NOBODY wore a helmet whilst driving a vehicle. Standard issue steel helmets (esp with visors) were entirely impractical. As armoured recce at the time, we crews tried everything to get out even of wearing CVR(T) bonedomes. Webbing. All you need is a web belt belt, ammo pouches left and right, water bottle pouch (on the left IIRC) and respirator pouch (on the right IIRC). But if you want to add yoke and kidney pouches, be my guest. You may find trousers OD (Olive Drab). They are like lightweights but slightly heavier material and instead of fastening by zip and a top button, they had button fly and wrap-around semi belts (one passed through the other) buckling at the sides. These were Para issue - we got some for our UNFICYP tour of 76 - 77. But lightweights are perfectly adequate. If you can find a flak jacket, so much the better. I saw numerous different patterns: I found a hich collar quite comfortable. The instructions suggested wearing it under the combat jacket, but Standing Orders demanded you wear them over. HTH

I hate to sound pedantic. Strictly speaking, it's Dispersed Pattern Material. The shapes are round and random. Disruptive pattern is sharp and jagged, seen on ships during WW2. Dispersed pattern camouflage blends the shape into the background. Disruptive pattern camouflage breaks the shape up. There are an awful lot of people (I am thinking Chris Ryan) who use the term Disruptive incorrectly (including the first hit of the 26 I got by Googling for "dispersed pattern material". Embarrassingly, it's http://www.arrse.co.uk, of which I am a member. So I have corrected it. ;o)