10FM68

Thanks Ploughman, Yes, you're basically right. Waterbeach was 39 Engr Regt (Airfds) with 51, 52, 53 and 63 Sp Sqns until 1977. I joined 51 early that year but a couple of months after that 51 moved to Ripon and was replaced by 48. I stayed with 48 and prepped for NI, where we then went in the September/October. 52 went to 22 Engr Regt as you said and was replaced by 34, 53 stayed at Waterbeach becoming 53 (Construction) and 63 went to Maidstone to be replaced by 60 Sp Sqn. After this break-up of airfield damage repair expertise which was, of course, stupid as the CRE (airfields) was also at Waterbeach if I am correct, all the UK engr regts were similar each having 2 field squadrons, a support squadron and a field squadron (Construction). The BAOR roles of the construction squadrons remained as before - looking after the clutch airfields. But... my question relates to the period leading up to that change when the regiments were still using vehicles in deep bronze green with the 12 Engr Bde formation sign (vertical diamond in engr red/blue/red/blue/red stripes with XII in white) and a blue AOS sign with 17?. There's a picture below of a Barford from one of the regiments - with 174. I had thought that was 39, but I may be mistaken as ours had yellow lines round the waists a la RAF airfield vehicles - but the large RE cap-badge on the door was certainly in use in 39 while other regiments had squadron shields (48 a garish blue and yellow shield of a beaver filling nearly the whole door of a Land Rover! I took this photo off the internet but cannot acknowledge its origins, unfortunately. I have other photos showing 171, 173 and 177, but don't know which regiment had which. Incidentally, I was told that the designations 51, 52 etc came from the former RAF airfield construction squadrons which were 5001, 5002, etc. It is said that at the transfer the RAF wished the squadrons well in the future, 'now that their balls had dropped'!

Of course, the fact that they would cost more to restore than they are worth is something I hadn't considered, though that will be true. Sadly, it also means that there will always be a shortage of such vehicles in preservation as the same argument will hold true for MKs, MJs, Leyland DAFs and MANs in their turn. Land Rovers survive because they can be both useful and relatively easy and cheap to restore, run and to store. Interestingly, my 1979 Land Rover is older now than Jeeps and other WWII vehicles were when the military preservation movement started taking off in the 70s! But, with people like you restoring 'basic' types, then, at least, we shall have a few to take forward into the future which is a damn good thing as they have a charm all of their own so, again well done!

Really lovely, a credit to you and your hard work and dedication and great to see out in the wild! It is just great to see bread-and-butter British vehicles being restored. I know the pool is small as most were simply scrapped after a few hard years of life as breakdown trucks, timber wagons and the like after demob without ever having been appreciated as future classics - there simply isn't the pool of survivors to build from. But, with Bedford RLs and their contemporaries in many case now 70 years old, they need to be gathered up before they disappear - there just aren't enough around on the circuit.

During the 1960s and early to mid 1970s, 12 Engineer Brigade used a sequence of numbers from 171 to, at least 177 on the dark blue arm of service signs. I think that 174 was 39 Engr Regt (Airfds) from Waterbeach, but can anyone, please allocated the remaining numerals for me? Presumably there will be 22 Engr Regt, Perham Down, 35 from Ripon and 36 from Maidstone at least but I'd very much like to know the full set. Many thanks in advance

Oh, well if it is Wollaton Hall Camp you have loads of options - it was a POW cage after the Yanks left, so you could paint yours as a beutewagen!🙂

Go for a nice bonnet number beginning with an 'M'! Commemorate a fine British unit rather than a foreign one! There's a lot to choose from with a 14 year+ timespan.

https://www.abebooks.co.uk/servlet/BookDetailsPL?bi=31402936490&searchurl=n%3D200000169%26bi%3DAny%2BBinding%26ds%3D25%26sortby%3D2%26tn%3DHomefront%2Btransport%2Bvehicles&cm_sp=snippet-_-srp1-_-title1 Any good?

Here's a photo of one in service towed by a Humber 1-ton armoured truck which appeared on an earlier thread on this forum. It's an interesting photo. The military policeman looks to be Dutch or, perhaps, Canadian. Notice the 20MPH speed limit sign on the back of the trailer and the early triangular reflectors.

Very many thanks for this, Ted. V & H were, in particular, taxing me!

I'm sure that this topic has cropped up before, but trawling through the archive I can't find it. It is probably a question for @Ted Angus: what do the wing markings on RAF vehicles post-war stand for? I know 'T' will be Training, 'M' Maintenance, 'F' Fighter and 'B' Bomber Commands, but what about the others - 'H' for example? My second question is then what is the significance of the digits after the '/'. My final question is related to the (1960s?) custom of abbreviations inside a circle on cab doors, such as 'LAA'. 'SP' I understand to be RAF station Steamer Point - Aden, but that's the only one I know (if I'm right, of course)! Any advice would be much appreciated.

In those days officers wouldn't have been issued with any clothing, they would be expected to pay for everything, which is why they could tailor their battledress and so on as it belonged to them. They could get certain types of clothing from the quartermaster, but only on repayment, through an RAOC unit at, I think, Corps level which was, basically, an officers clothing shop. (I've forgotten what it was called). Of course, they also bought direct from the military tailors when in UK on leave, or had stuff sent out from home or made by local tailors, particularly in the Middle and Far East. This system continued well after the war - even in the 1970s officers were issued, for example, just a single combat suit rather than the two issued to ORs. If they needed a second, or it wore out, then it had to be bought. Luckily, most young officers started military life at Sandhurst straight from school as officer cadets where they were still, legally, ORs, thus issued with a full scale of uniforms most of which they would be allowed to keep on commissioning as it wouldn't be reissued, though some of it had to be paid for and other bits handed back in. Those who entered through the university OTCs and were thus already 'officers' when they were going through Sandhurst weren't able to get the same issue so had to pay for a lot more or do without. Most officers wore brown shoes and boots, except in rifle regiments, the Light Infantry, RTR, Scottish Regiments and one or two others; RAChD, for example. I suspect the re-enactor with the map case is dressed as an officer, though I can't see his badges or rank on his shoulders.

That's true. Any equipment still in service in the early 1970s would be gradually painted in one or other of the various 'drab greens you mention. This would, of course, include any residual WWII vehicles - Bedford QL office wagons for example and Leyland Hippos, Diamond Ts, Macks - probably some other types survived that long, long enough to be repainted. The other interesting thought is about vehicles which were factory painted in light stone in the 50s and 60s when garrisons were still maintained in the Middle East. It is tempting to think that vehicles in use in those theatres were supplied in DBG in the factory and then repainted in theatre, but it seems that wasn't the case. Certain contracts would be let for batches of vehicles to be supplied in light stone from the start. Certainly this can be seen with Land Rovers which were clearly light stone all over. And, of course, this has been repeated in recent years with stuff for Iraq and Afghanistan being factory-painted in light stone.

I think the colour you are after is SCC15 which was introduced in 1944. It is an olive drab, but not the same shade as US olive drab - or drabs as the US also had a number of different shades over time. Nor is it the same as the 1970s olive drab which morphed into the IRR greens and NATO greens used for 20-30 years thereafter of which there was a surprising variety depending whether it was factory applied and, if so, by what factory (Land Rover IRR green differs slightly from Bedford green and so on), or whether it was applied in the unit by brush or sprayed, from a new tin, or an old one, with thinners or without etc etc. Interestingly, this later NATO green is remarkably close to the colour used by the BEF, but that's another story. Here is a picture of a column of Daimler Armoured Cars and Daimler Dingoes of the Westminster Dragoons taken in the early-mid 50s. I can't acknowledge ownership of the photos as I have no idea who took them. You will see straight away the difference between the SCC15 of the Dingo and first DAC and the Deep Bronze Green of the second DAC. I think the colours are pretty close to reality judging from the peripherals - uniforms etc. Note also that, being a TA cavalry unit, the vehicles are polished so, effectively satin to gloss whereas SCC15 should have been matt. DBG was introduced from the early 1950s but, bearing in mind how large the army was in those days, it would have been several years before the entire fleet had changed - probably well into the second half of the 50s, if not later in some cases. I can, for example, clearly remember from around 1980, the TA searchlight squadron's 1937 Lister-engined generators having the faded 'Mickey Mouse Ear' camouflage patterns on their canvas sides! Of course all the new generation of vehicles such as the new CT range, Ferrets, Saracens etc would have been factory painted in DBG while even Centurion Mk3/Vs would have appeared in SCC15. In other words, I think, SCC15 hung around a lot longer than is generally thought.

There's this one floating around on the internet - can't credit the owner, I'm afraid, as I don't know who it is. Judging by the MTP uniforms, it isn't a very old picture.

I think you are both right @Noel7& @fv1609Looking more closely on my computer rather than on the ipad, it certainly doesn't look as though the line is on the board. So, yes, that makes a lot of sense: it isn't an AOS sign at all, simply a '130' on a probably white board. At a guess then, this may be a DUKW being used to ferry Dutch civilians during the flooding in Holland in early/mid 45? Certainly, everyone seems happy enough, though the soldiers are still wearing CEFO. Difficult to say. But it has to be post-42, I think as the British Army only got DUKWs in 1943 in preparation for Sicily & Italy. Perhaps it's the 1947 amphibious exercise at Beaumaris!

I don't think that the sign is a formal arm-of-service sign. Yes, you are right - the colours do not look to be red over green and the diagonal goes the wrong way. The dimensions don't look correct for an AOS sign and neither does the way it is attached to the vehicle. And, of course, AOS signs didn't carry the number of the actual unit - except by coincidence and 130 is not in the right area of the table for an RASC company. So, if this is 130 Company RASC, which it may well be, then the sign is for another reason. That having been said, I can find no reference to there being amphibious ambulance companies: 130 was certainly, though, a motor ambulance company RASC - later 36 Squadron RCT. An amphibious motor ambulance company, if one existed, would not belong at brigade or divisional level, but would be army or army group level, probably the latter as it would be used to ferry casualties to hospital ships or, possibly back across wide rivers such as the Rhine, but, whether a dedicated unit would be necessary for that, I don't know. The only use I can find of DUKWs in use as ambulances is on return journeys across the Normandy beaches/Mulberry harbours to shipping, having already been used for off-loading equipment and stores, in which case they had Red Cross flags attached, both horizontally across the bonnet and flying from staffs because, of course, they lacked permanent Red Cross markings. However... never say never!

Hmm! 130 sits among the batch largely allocated to the independent tank and armoured brigades - but that is generally post-1943 and the only obvious diagonally split AOS sign would be the red over green of the RASC. My lists don't show one. Two questions: could it be later in the war and could there be a missing digit off the end which might place it among the more numerous 1300 series which also are more commonly found on diagonally split signs - not least because GHQ, area troops and 21 AG all used diagonal white bars even on AOS signs which otherwise were plain, such as black, red, brown, blue & green, or split horizontally, such as those for the RA, R Signals, REME and so on. But, if this is the case, then the most likely solution will be RASC as, by and large, they dominate the 1300 series (with RE popping up at 1300 just to prove the exception to the rule!). But, thinking about it, apart from some blue/brown diagonally split AOS signs in the Middle East in 1941, I'm not sure I can think of another diagonally split sign apart from RASC which, of course, were ubiquitous.

That's a tricky one. His sporran is white with three long black tassels. 3 tassels suggests Territorial Force or a volunteer unit, not regular. His glengarry has a diced band and his tartan is indistinct (yellow rarely shows up on old photos - so appears black as does red! He's not Scots Guards, certainly as the only Scots Guards who wore kilts were pipers and they wore Royal Stewart tartan which is easy to identify. The tartan isn't 42nd, or 'government', so he's not Black Watch or a volunteer unit affiliated to them. I think he is from a volunteer battalion of the Highland Light Infantry. But... he has a diced band on the glengarry which, I believe, was worn only by pipers, but his cantle is rather plain for a piper I would have thought. Anyway, try 9th Bn Highland Ligh0t Infantry for starters, or something similar. I should also add that, of course, he is wearing 'birds' nests at the top of his arms, suggesting he's a musician, but, lacking a piper's dirk - I think he's probably a drummer (and, were he a piper, he would undoubtedly have posed with his pipes).

Surely, water jerricans, shovels and picks were G1098 items rather than part of a vehicle CES?

But, you have had an answer - a clear one, what do you find wrong with it - apart from it not being the answer you wanted? Paul Connor replied to you - he's an expert in his field and this is what he said: "... you got exactly what you asked for, 100% scientific confirmation that there is zero possibility of buried vehicles. " So which question remains to be answered?

Nope, you're absolutely correct: formation sign on nearside and AOS sign on offside just as you have it.

As I recall most MkII Escorts were black. Green had been standard for Mk1s, for the Morris Traveller fleet and earlier, but that changed in the early 70s when the entire car fleet went to black, in line with the Grade 1 staff cars which had changed earlier. So Hillman Hunters were black (the Morris 1800s and Ford Zephyrs had been green), Ford Cortinas were black, Vauxhall Chevettes were black and so on until the end of direct MoD purchase of cars. Once they started being hired from fleet providers then colours varied as, I presume, they still do as the hired fleet is significantly larger now than it was. RMP in BAOR also used white saloon cars (though all RMP vehicles including Land Rovers were black in Berlin). In the late 60s and certainly into the late 70s, NI 'covert cars', as they were often called included standard issue cars, such as Minis, Hunters etc. Some were repainted in garish colours - my boss had an Ulsterbus blue Hunter, (which was useful as you could always spot him coming) while I, for a time, had a standard black Mini - all fitted with local plates, of course. Most were readily identifiable, however, by the Army fire extinguishers inside if you were to look carefully! But these were really only for reduced profile, rather than sneaking about. They were used for general military administration, their convenience was that they could travel independently with just one person in whereas using 'the green fleet' such as Land Rovers required movement in pairs with several people involved. When I was there in 77/78 'covert cars' were in such short supply that we were encouraged to take our own private cars from GB and received official duty rate of motor mileage allowance. They also retained the GB number plates which wasn't that much of an issue with older cars as there were plenty of GB plates around on older vehicles as the MoT rules in NI were more relaxed than in GB, so quite a few old bangers (like mine) were imported. I used my 1967 VW Beetle, my colleague his Morris Minor saloon. We weren't allowed to use them in South Armagh (below a certain line of latitude which I have since forgotten) except to the helipad at Bessbrook, though. Certain units with specialist roles were allocated a greater variety of covert cars of any make and style. There was also a shortage of Browning 9mm automatics, so we were issued .38 Enfields and horrible plastic shoulder holsters, but that's another story!

http://www.farndalefamily.co.uk/Individuals from 1922/FAR00911 - Martin Farndale and First Regiment Royal Horse Artillery 1951 to 2000.htm Browsing this evening I came across the link above which is certainly worth a good look for anyone interested in post-war British vehicles, particularly artillery from Egypt through Aden to BAOR and the UK. Quite a few colour photos as well which are useful for anyone interested in colour schemes and markings (and note a green plastic jerrican in 1966! Quite fascinating, I thought, I hope you do too.

There are certainly photos of green plastic jerricans in use in Aden which means they pre-date 1968.

Thank you for that, Clive. An interesting little article - those were the days when the British Army was actually allowed by the Treasury to maintain kit in storage - can't nowadays without being 'taxed'. I suspect they lasted into the 60s in Libya given Blue Belle's photos - though those in her photos certainly looked as though they'd reached the end of the road - possibly to coincide with the withdrawal from service of the towed 17Pdr.