10FM68

You are most welcome, but I suspect the best help I gave was waking Clive from his slumber deep under a Welsh mountain!

Once again Clive has been able to provide fascinating information - stuff I didn't know but am glad I do now! I think that the HQ you are thinking about would have used several differnt types of the penthouses Clive has illustrated. I'm sure that there would have been bespoke ones as well, because, at that level, particularly in those days, senior officers held quite a sway on what they wanted - one only has to look at some of the modifications of their Jeeps and caravans (though Patton's trucks do seem to go that one stage further)! I can remember working at a divisional HQ when the GOC and his chief of staff were re-designing the layout of Main HQ and it involved a great deal of work on the part of the supporting signal regiment to get the pattern of BBVs and tentage/penthouses right and to ensure that all the 'wiggly amps' could be provided and installed speedily. But, this was much later and in peacetime where there wasn't the same degree of urgency - not least because it was felt that such measures were for peacetime exercises only because, in war, the HQ would operate from buildings. Whether that expectation was realistic, though, we never found out (fortunately)!

Blimey! This would be some considerable task as the HQ of WWII higher formations in the field were huge. First off, though, I think you'd have to be clear what the author meant by a marquee and, from looking at those diagrams I'm not. In those days marquees as I understand them to be, ie large, stand-alone tents (plenty of photos of them in scenes of Monty's HQ - particularly those where he is shown taking the German surrender on Luneburg Heath), which were used a great deal for a variety of tasks and, because they were built out of sections, they could vary in size considerably. At an Army HQ, it is more than likely that the staff also had some purpose-built, and therefore, probably unique, tentage made to fit according to the wishes of the senior officer asking for it. And, as there were people at rear HQ who had access to canvas and the easy means of tailoring it, knocking up suitable tentage would be a relatively easy matter. I suspect that what are being referred to as marquees are either bespoke lean-to arrangements or a combination of those and standard tentage. @fv1609 wrote an impressive summary of standard WWII tentage - that might help. The diagram you have is but a very small part of the HQ and shows very little. If it is to scale, even approximately, you might be able to extrapolate from the size of the 160 pounder (about 14'x14'). Somewhere a chap did quite a bit of work on the orbat of 21st Army Group's HQ - Tac, Main & Rear and there were pages of it, Have a look here: https://ww2talk.com/index.php?categories/trux-21st-army-group.163/.

Note the removable metal detector ring! Something else which would be questionable nowadays (probably fortunately!)

Thank you for that, Clive. That's a really interestng and useful contribution which may have run that particular fox to ground. Talking of foxes, one of the dogs has just come back from his walk having rolled in badger poo - God, he stinks!

Just a thought, but were the civilian registration marks being used prior to the dismemberment of the Ministry of Supply and the SP marks come in subsequently?

Yes, I think that SP is more likely related to 'Special Project' than to anything directly to do with sales as so many SP series vehicles led directly to British Army vehicles with coincident overseas sales rather than more directly to them. The trouble is, for a very logical organisation the military can sometimes be rather obtuse - after all, they completely disregarded whole blocks of perfectly usable bigrams for no obvious reason (not those which might be confused such as 'I' and 'O'). And if the SAs appear only on a few Cromwells and nowhere else, then that is even more odd, but that is, currerntly how it appears. More digging needed, I suspect. Thank you Wally for going that extra mile with the Tank Museum.

Thank you for that photo Chally2. Interesting - probably not quite as interesting as the jolt the driver probably felt when he landed - were that to happen today, I suspect he would be suing for compensation due to a crushed spine etc! Thanks, Wally, but, forgive me, but I'm not quite sure what you mean. Are you saying that, at some point after the introduction of the new ERM system in 49/50 that Cromwells - and only Cromwells had their ERMs changed from the Z series to SA? Is this just a suggestion by you or do you know this to be the case? If so, do you have any idea why that was done?

It all sounds great fun, you are fortunate to have the perseverence. I like studying things in depth, but usually get distracted after a while. I was piecing together the narrative of your thread last night and got sidetracked onto the differences between the various marks of halftrack. So, all morning I have been trying to sort that riddle out! Later I shall return to M32 ARVs in British military service - I had forgotten, until I re-read your thread, that the British Army had any. What are you going to do with all your photos when you have finished the book? It does worry me that so much has been lost - there was that blinkin' online photo store (can't remember the name) which suddenly demanded large sums of money and then deleted all the photos of those who didn't pay - did so much damage to online study and the move from websites to FB was dreadful - recalling old posts from FB is impossible. We have probably a max of 20-30 years left and then our collections will be gone - there is no guarantee that our next generation of relatives will be interested and they'll all get slung out as being of no interest - not least because the young today don't go in for hard copies of photos - if it isn't on their phone, it doesn't exist. And I'm not that sure museums can be trusted either - look what happened to Beverley and even Bovington has a pretty hard nose when it comes to exhibits - they seem to have scrapped or sold off quite a lot over the years. Enough, I'm rambling.

The best ones are those which the Daily Mail use for things like photos of all the guests at something like Ladies Day at the races. The caption-writers don't appear to have English as their first language and are probably about 12 years old! Hilarious (as the DM would say!) But, yes, on a serious note, it can be very annoying to have one's contribution which you will have worked so hard on, altered after despatch.

I think that is true about every book you read - the 'difinitive work' on Military Land Rovers by James Taylor & Geoff Fletcher is superb, but there are lots of little anomalies here and there - hence my advice to Lizzie to get a good proof-reader who knows his stuff. Interestingly, I sometimes wonder whether the author ever gets to choose the captions for the photos as it is often here that the biggest mistakes occur. A lovely article about an SAS Jeep had a caption suggesting that the stowed Lewis gun magazines were anti-tank mines. One has to try and pick one's way through the quagmire and, frankly, often it doesn't really matter as, certainly in my case, so much of what I read doesn't stay in my brain past the weekend. I look on here and sometimes come across old posts of mine and read them and think, 'golly, did I really know that at that time - I don't now!' But ERMs are a particular minefield because of the way they were put together and because so many records have been lost. MERLIN is wonderful, but often useless on the units which used the vehicles because they match UINs with current nomenclature and, given all the changes in regiments and corps over the years, that makes it a matter of interpretation for the reader rather than being able to take it as fact. And so it goes on.

Well, good morning Lizzie, how very nice to hear from you and what a coincidence as, only last night I was trawling through your whole thread on Tripoli: I have it all on my computer (luckily I saved the photos before they disappeared as there are some fascinating shots and I return to them often). There was little on there which I would argue with now - except I think that there were light khaki coveralls and that they weren't faded green as you suggest. Which is a pretty small matter to disagree on, I suspect! Oh, and I'd spell 'jerrican' with an 'i' rather than a 'y' as the Army did (maybe still does, but I duobt that they are as finickety about such detail these days when they can't even manage drill properly (I saw a photo recently of an RSM with one hand correctly supporting his pace stick under his arm and the other cocked up behind his back as if he were a GI - I was shocked!) As to this matter, thank you for your thoughts and the photo - yes, not brill, but it's all grist to the mill. I'm not really convinced by the Sabratha theory - that might be too subtle for its audience I think. It might hold water better in a static exhibit of one of the regiment's tanks on an open day all bulled up, but not here, I think. I would be surprised if the photo had been taken at the time of the livery change: it's in 'rag order' badly weathered and with a replacement (and yet to be painted?) front mudguard by the look of it. Yes, it is a posed shot, but not one of which the regiment ought to have been too proud! Certainly 3 RHA would have managed the photoshoot rather better, if their Scammell is anything to go by! Best BD for the crew, in this case, is rather let down by the state of their chariot! So, in the absence of a more convincing reason, I will stick with the dyslexic answer - the backwards 'z'! But, we'll probably never know. How's the book going? We're still waiting. I had a wry smile about your comments about Pat Ware and his knowledge of Centurions, last night. I have most of his books on 'Antars' 'Quarter Tons' 'Ferrets' and so on and have been pleased with them. Just recently I bought 2 of the series of 4 bookzines by him for Kelsley Pubs on the subject of soft-skinned vehicles in British military use. They're terrible! Although most of the photos come from The Warehouse Collection, the captioning is dire and many are completely irrelevant or of preserved examples with all the problems of detail they bring. As you and I, and most on this forum, probably, appreciate, there is so much to be gleaned from an original photo - buy why do those posing always stand in front of the markings! The narrative is thin... I could go on, but, my goodness, not a series I'd have put my name to in his position. But, I expect it helps pay the bills. So... take your time and do a good job - but do make sure you have a good proof-reader who knows his stuff - that is where so many books fall down as the author is so immersed in the work they often can't see the wood for the trees by the end - it is the proof-reader's job to bring a critical eye from a new persepective. Oh and thank you for the ID of the Archer - what a spot!

I like the little chap sticking his head out of the radiator cap cover! Being sure about the CofG on an MGB always seemed to need a bit of luck. We used to use a tin triangle which could be hung on the top rail as an indicator, but that still assumes that you've got it right in the first place. Dummy Ranger mines were made of compressed compost - early attempts by the Army to be green and what happens... they get banned!

Thank you Noel - that is indeed interesting and the first I have heard of --SA-- being used. But, as they attach the SA series to Cromwells and the photo is of a Cromwell... they may be right! Unless, of course, they took their reasoning from the picture in the first place. And thank you Clive, a couple of interesting theories there, not stong in likelihood, I think, but, you never know! Further trawling on the internet found this photo which I hadn't previously come across: There were no credits attched to it as far as I could see. But it also shows a 1 Inf Div formation sign and the fact that the driver appears to have fashioned himself a glass window to see through without getting sand in his eyes! One suspects that the tank had to be specially manoeuvred into that spot to ensure there was a palm tree in the photo! Any suggestions for what it is lurking to the left of the photo showing only its trackguard?

Well, thank you Clive. That was quick and yours is a much clearer picture - the cap badges are certainly apparent and those of the 4th/7th. So... why --SA-- I wonder. We'll have to look for more photos. I wonder whether it is a local mistake and they applied SA instead of ZA, which would make much more sense! And £375 will buy me a large picture of it! Not cheap, eh?

Were those RE RL Tippers in the convoy or are they from a 1(BR) Corps RCT Tipper Sqn? The top photo, of course, being RAF. The RCT had large quantities of tippers for supporting RE in route repair & maintenance and in providing hardcore for approaches to river xrossings etc.

Here's a Sapper Bedford RLW carrying and towing LFB pontoons (photo attributed to A9 Models &c). The load bed itself differs from the GS version with a strengthend & reinforced headboard and the spare wheel goes behind the cab as the superstructure bins are on the other side where the spare is normally housed. Below is another photo, this time of an RL GS (so it appears) with the stowage bins. It could be that some RCT units which used RLs for freqent open-bed stores carriage also had them. And, finally, a photo of Iserlohn-based sappers using a 432 with barmine layer and (the now banned) Ranger anti-personnel mine scattering system. Sadly, I can't attribute copyright of these photos which came from the internet.

I agree, I have never seen a photo of another one, certainly. I agree on the --R?-- point as well. I have hundreds, probably over 1000 actually, of photos of British military vehicles and I major on the 50s, but the highest I can go is --RH--. I understood that the R series was reserved for rebuilds of soft-skinned vehicles. If they weren't rebuilt, then they were ore likely to be in the Y series, while armoured vehicles majored on Z. But the Cromwell certainly looks to be British, or at least, Commonwealth - perhaps it is South African.

OK, here we go again. I came across this image (ack to Getty Images) of a Cromwell. It is post war, probably somewhere sandy and it has an --SA-- ERM. According to what I have read, SA didn't exist as an ERM but may have been used by the South Africans (though I can't see why the South Africans might wish to use British military registration numbers after 1950, but still). What do others think and does anyone have a solution? On the subject of ERMs, --KM-- is interesting. Again, according to what I have read, it was used for British Army vehicles in Kenya and possibly also vehicles entered manually into Merlin - though what that means I don't know. But, they seem to me to appear on lease-hire vehicles - the RE 'C vehicle' fleet, saloon cars and the like. Again, does anyone know for sure?

Trucks were used for nosing EWBB, though obviously not HGB as in your photo, but, UK-based field squadrons didn't have FV432s or CVR(T) in those days. Nor, as far as I can recall, did we have them at 3TRRE where I was instructing in 79-80, though, there were, of course MCT etc, but I don't remember their being used by the troops in 55 & 57 Sqns who were doing their basic combat engineer training. But, I think we were only teaching basic MGB which was boomed by hand. But, it is a long time ago and, apart from occasionally looking through my REPB and doing some MGB calculations for amusement, I haven't seriously returned to combat engineering since 1982 in Iserlohn. The stowage bin for the tilt rails was more obvious on an RL, but I can't find a photo of a Sapper RL anywhere on the web which shows it. Plenty of photos or the RAF Police, however - were they the only ones to carry cameras n those days, or were they fond of being in front of the camera? Ted, we need to know!

The model of Bedford RL used by RE had, among other variations, a reinforced front bumper with fitted tow hitch. A similar arrangement to that on the RL light recovery vehicle less the vice, obviously and there were light gurds fitted at each end of the shortened bumper (see photos which I can't credit as I don't know where they came from). I can't remember now, but I think they were all w/winch as well. They also had trays under the bed for stowing the tilt hoops. The reinforced bumper enabled them to be used for push-launching bridges for example (to find the centre of gravity on a Bailey - push until it tips, then pull it back a foot)!

Well, well. Thank you very much indeed, Citroman. That's solved that one. Presumably the light stone vehicles had been brought up from Italy when 1st Canadian Corps moved north in Feb 45. What a fascinating place that must have been to wander around! Certainly beats Ludgershall, even in its heyday! The breakdown tractors - identification - a Ward La France at the front, is that a Mack rear right and a Federal far left?

Have a chat with Dale Feather from Feather3DPrinting. He can produce to any scale, within reason, in resin and has a really excellent portfolio of contemporary and recent British military models including, Land Rovers CVR(T), Saracen, Millie Mk1. There's a REME connection - he's on Facebook.

I was looking at these two photos of collection points for surpuls vehicles. I have had copies of both for a while, but only just noticed that the unit seems to be the same - RAOC 674 - though I don't know what the formation sign is - is it Canadian? The picture of the armoured cars (and others, I know) suggests surplus after the campaign in North Africa given the general stone colours of the vehicles, while that of the breakdown tractors would seem to be NWE. So - both could be Italy. But I don't know. They're interesting photos in any event, but can anyone suggest where and when they were taken and what the unit might be?

As I recall, there was a half-way house for indicators with a kit which could enable the side and tail/brake lights to be flashed - there had to be a visible flashing lamp on the dashboard. My father had such a set-up on his 1954 Hillman Husky. I don't know if it is still the case, but it meant that, for a very long time, indicators could be amber or white at the front and amber or red at the back. I think the same applied, though for longer, in the USA where the amber indicators took longer to become popular.