10FM68

I recently bought these on eBay. I wanted them to put bits and pieces in thinking they were the same size as tobacco tins, but they aren't they're much smaller. Anyway, there seem to be a lot of them on eBay at the moment and I therefore wondered whether they really do date from WWII. If they do, what percussion caps were they for? And, again, if they are original, is the colour authentic SCC-15? They don't seem to have been used and the stencilling is incomplete, so they could have come from a large stock of unused tins, but, equally, they might have been made in India earlier this year. I've no idea - has anyone on here? Thanks in advance 10 68

Exactly, I think we're letting our imaginations run away with us here. There is no reason at all to doubt the age of the film: everything is right for 1948. There is no proof that what seems to be a windscreen is even glass and the dimensions are certainly not correct for a Land Rover, that isn't a windscreen wiper but a bit of trim of some sort detached from the rest above it. The 'vent panel' is certainly not Land Rover and that isn't a tropical roof but, probably a bit of old tarpaulin. The construction may well be based on an old vehicle, but as others have said, it is some sort of shed - either for the adjacent vegetable garden or, worse, given the destitution of so many in Hamburg at that time and as evidenced by people emerging from the former cellars of their homes the rest having been destroyed, even somewhere to sleep. The presence of old bits of pipe, probably old gas/water pipe, but possibly tilt hoops, suggest other attempts at making a shelter nearby. And, certainly there aren't too many Beetles for 1948 in a major, comparatively wealthy, city port like Hamburg.

No idea what you're on about, I'm afraid.

Very early 7.62x51 blanks in British use were shorter than ball, but that had changed by the late 60s/70s. Thereafter they were the same length - probably so that they fed better. As a boy I used to collect empty cases trying to get one of each year from the head stamps (I know, I know). The early ones in my collection had crimped tops with several crimps a bit like 4th from left below. The later ones were identical to that 2nd from right. I'm sure most of you know this, but a quick guide to what nationality the boxes are will be the NATO country code (and this extends to friendly countries outside NATO. The UK being 99. British ammo boxes are always service brown, most foreign ones seem to be a shade of green. And please chaps, unless you're American they're ammo BOXES not CANS!

https://www.axholmesigns.co.uk/ they have a stencil for a Jeep first aid box

Hmm! Thanks, that's proof of a 'C' being pronounced 'K' certainly. But definitely the wrong 'Ark' in this case.

Could well be! Thanks for your contribution.

Some sappers at Longmoor in 1933

Certainly could be foreign - that's a dodgy looking swagger stick for a Sapper and his mac isn't the standard officers' riding mac of the period! The other chap (half hidden) may be foreign, but certainly seems to have a hatband of a different colour and the back is a bit cocked up. Could be a colonel+ with a red band or something else.

I wonder whether it is immediately post-war. Some of the Sappers seem to have been issued navy blue berets in place of the khaki and the corporal on the warflat seems to be wearing a shirt with a collar. Also the Scammel has no headlamp covers.

Looks as if the vehicles belonged to the London County Council

I expect it'll be a Ukrainian tractor driver moonlighting!🙂

Thank you very much indeed, Sean. That is really kind of you to look it up for me. As you say, that solves the mystery. And, yes, whether 'Ark' was a particular vehicle or a more general nickname, I don't know, but, in the book, it is referred to as 'the ark' rather than 'Ark' with a capital letter, suggesting it may be a more general name than a specific one - but, that's conjecture. Again, many thanks 1068

Many thanks for your speedy response. I hadn't thought of Humber - shame on me! But, that now raises the question - which Humber? I presume it would have been a Humber Light Reconnaissance Car as it needed a steel door and be sufficiently open at the top for the general to acknowledge the salute. I understand that some were built as staff cars - the Royal family had some where the rear seats were provided with reinforced glass side windows. Whether it was one of these or not, I don't know. Interesting...

I am currently reading the history of 43 (Wessex) Division from Jun 44 to May 45. It was compiled by Maj Gen Essame, in 1951. Formerly he had commanded 214 Inf Bde in that Division. From time to time he refers to an 'ark'. This is not the 79 Armd Div 'ark' - the bridgelayer, but a vehicle used by commanders, including the divisional commander, Maj Gen Thomas. Here's a quote: [Gen Thomas] then entered the steel door of the ark, slammed it to, and, standing upright, [suggesting an open top] acknowledged the brigadier's salute. The ark shot off at speed down the road". My thought is that an 'ark' might have been a White Scout Car, but does anyone know for certain, please? 1068

It looks right to me. Bear in mind that the old paint will have suffered a great deal over the years - from being heated, scrubbed, subject to fuel spills etc. Yours looks to be in DBG, but soon after that one was built there was a change to a matt green which was more olive - if you have one have a look at HPP lamps made at that time and later = the bowls are painted in that colour. It is probably a variant of the British "NAT green" which often varied markedly according to the manufacturer. For example, the NATO green factory applied to Land Rovers in the later years (from mid/late 70s) is a very different shade from the tins of paint applied by units - either sprayed or brushed, while the RAF version was different again.

An FFR, to me, and I think most people, is one which is designated as such in the build specification: i.e with 24 volt electrics, suppression and so on: designed for carrying and operating radios (as you say, some 24V 90A Land Rovers were built for helistart and would not, therefore, be equipped with combat net radio, though they might have a "Pyephone" or equivalent for airfield/FARP/FOB use). An FFR would be more expensive than a GS and would have been bought against a requirement with a view to keeping numbers to a minimum - where a GS could do the role, an FFR would not be issued. Vehicles would be issued to a unit establishment based on that requirement - a "scale of issue" - so FFRs for appointments which required combat net radios, such as the command chain, while GS vehicles would be issued for use by others not required to be on the command net - such as the quartermaster's staff, cooks, chaplain and others with, largely admin and support roles. The scale of issue of radios would, of course, match that of the vehicles provided to carry them (plus a scale of spares, probably, depending on their assessed reliability). So if a unit were on exercise or operations, it would be normal for FFRs to be used in the radio role and GS in others. Around camp - for domestic use, duty driver, etc, it is quite likely that an FFR might be used in the GS role, but, it wouldn't have seats in the back of course and its URS (battery boxes, radio racks etc (for other types of FFR Land Rover) would get in the way. As for VPK, the same would apply - if the vehicle required radios it would have them and certainly that was the case for my own which, in 1977 in NI was fitted with combat net radio as were the other vehicles in the chain of command which were required to be on the net. Regarding aerials: the ones on the front wing with aerial tuning units (ATUs: Larkspur TUAAM: Clansman) were generally VHF and those on the "candlesticks" HF. Most units used VHF for command with HF as a back-up for some command appointments (generally for use as a rear-link radio as it had greater range), while RMP traffic units, for example, ran an HF command net as their requirement was to communicate over a larger area. So, a typical Land Rover might have one or two VHF aerials on the wings (forward and rear link) with a single Aerial on a candlestick (HF rearlink). Royal Signals vehicles with a wider communications remit might have four aerials. Of course, as with everything to do with the military, there would be exceptions: the "establishment" was one thing, real life another - particularly given that breakdowns and failures of both vehicles and radios would result in apparently odd combinations (remember that photo of Bluebelle's with a Centurion ARV being used as a rebro station!). Whether the URS was so designed in order that it could be removed to convert the vehicle into a GS, or whether it was in order that it could be removed to reduce weight for helicopter lift, I don't know, but I suspect the latter as it never found its way into other SWB Land Rovers which might also benefit from easily-removed radio fittings to free up space (not so necessary for LWB Land Rovers, of course). I'm not convinced that the Army had any particular plan to employ FFRs to GS as a matter of course anyway, as the whole point of them was to provide radios and transport for the commanders and others who required them. I know nothing about manpack combat net radios being fitted to GS vehicles as, in my time in the army, I never came across them, nor heard of them until finding this forum, in fact. Winterisation was applied to all vehicles which were required to be so modified according to the unit establishment, whether they were FFR or GS Land Rovers, 4-tonners or whatever. These included vehicles in units with a NATO flank role - the ACE Mobile Force (Land) AMF(L) army units, RM commandos and RAF units supporting the support helicopter and the Harrier forces. The vast majority were, therefore, righthand drive and most were to be seen on Salisbury Plain as the main AMF(L) units were based at Bulford. I ought to add that, of course, it was standard practice to remove both radios and ATUs (and other G1098 items) from vehicles when in camp or when no radio net was set up (not on exercise, training or operations) - hence the frequency of photos of FFR vehicles without them. This was done for security and to prevent their being swiped - always a problem in barracks, particularly for lodger units, as I frequently found to my cost. When my Land Rovers were out of use I usually had to remove wipers, rubies and bulbs or else the R Signals major unit with whom we shared a barracks would nick them - particularly off the trailers which, of course, saw much less activity than the Land Rovers!

A lightweight is capable of towing a pack howitzer, but they weren't used for that and certainly not FFRs. The gun tractors were long wheelbase Land Rovers. As an FFR, yours would probably have been used by someone in the command structure, perhaps a troop or battery commander, a gun position officer, battery captain or the like. In the infantry battalions similarly, perhaps a company commander, even a CO, but it's difficult to be certain. Generally, the more senior you were in a unit or formation, the more likely you were to get a long wheelbase as they were more comfortable with more room for the radio operator and all the kit of three people. That having been said, I know of one divisional commander, a major general, who used a lightweight for his Rover Group. And pretty tight it was! Yours would almost certainly have towed a half-ton trailer.

Walker, WALTON & Hanson, not Watson.

Gleaning what I can from the internet and making a few assumptions, I would offer the following: Your Land Rover started life with 32 Light Regiment Royal Artillery at Wing Barracks, Bulford. They were equipped with 105mm pack howitzers at that time. At the end of 1977 they re-equipped as 32 Guided Weapons Regiment RA with Swingfire. The establishment (holdings of personnel and kit) would have changed, of course, and one of the losses was your Land Rover which went to the 1st Battalion, The Queen’s Own Highlanders who were in Ritchie Camp Kirknewton, Edinburgh. They kept it for 2 years but in December 1979 they were posted to Northern Ireland where they took over their predecessors’ vehicles and your Land Rover stayed in GB and was passed to 1st Battalion, The Queen’s Regiment based in Howe Barracks, Canterbury. It would have been used for their pre-Northern Ireland training as they deployed on a short tour there in the April. In September 1980 the battalion went off to Belize and left your Land Rover behind with their rear party. They came back in Jun 81 and took it back on charge of the battalion main body. They kept it then until they deployed to Northern Ireland in November 1982 when your vehicle was sent to the Central Vehicle Depot at Ashchurch. While it was there it was drawn for temporary use (probably an exercise) by 130 Field Squadron (Volunteers) of 111 Engineer Regiment (V) which was a Central Volunteer HQ (CVHQ)-sponsored unit, i.e.not maintained at full establishment all the time (hence its need to draw vehicles from store for exercises). CVHQ was based at Minley Manor, near Camberley. A month later, in June 83 it was returned to store until being issued to the 1st Battalion, The Royal Anglian Regiment whose barracks were at Oakington near Cambridge. This battalion was replaced by the 2nd Battalion, The Queen’s Regiment in November 1984 and they kept it until it was struck off strength in June the following year – 1985.

It is most likely that A1021A is indeed 25 Field Regiment RA. This regiment moved to Dennis Barracks, Muensterlager in February 1974 and your vehicle, from the B Card was issued to them in the March. The batteries were 35, 54 and 93 Field Batteries RA. The regiment was equipped with Abbot 105mm SP Howitzers. The UIN on a B Card is usually the last unit the vehicle served with as it was a pencil entry, changed as the vehicle moved to different units. It would retain the "A" suffix as long as it was on the books of a major unit (regiment/battalion). If I remember rightly, only if, for some reason, it was necessary to allot it to a sub unit which had an accounting autonomy - such as being independent would the suffix change. 10 68

To be 100% accurate, you really need the older, canvas works ticket holder rather than the later plastic one, though, I should imagine, they're a bit hard to come by nowadays. Here's the older pattern FMT600:

They are designed to fit the, then, standard 7" Lucas F700 GS military headlights. These were fitted, not just to Land Rovers by any means, but for a wide range of British soft-skinned military vehicles from the 1950s until the 1980s. They are generally very sought after in the MV world, particularly as these are in their original box and in such good condition - with the rubber sealing rings etc. 10 68

Defence of the Realm

I couldn't agree more. So much depends on the colouriser knowing his stuff - and the chap who did these, doesn't - hence, also, the "Tommies" in field grey (despite the obvious kilt) and the brown boots - when they should be black - probably an American did it as they wore brown. It's OK for our generation because, generally, we know the limitations, but, a few generations down the line and people will be convinced that they are accurate. It doesn't take long as, already, there is quite a lot of uncertainty about exactly what the various colours of wartime British military vehicles were and modellers still can't buy them - they have to mix their own.