Le Prof

Hi @mcspool

Thanks for republishing that. Do you know the original author or source for the listings?

I have reorganised the listings into the more useful table below, which can be shared freely with acknowledgement.

Below is a detail of the registration on RAF 261179, and Armstrong Gent's bicycle currently for sale on Milweb. I am currently unable to access the site, but will add the owner's name later.

Best Regards,

Adrian

Hi John,

Thanks for the excellent quality closeups, it's a pity there's nothing to see. (-:

I cannot think of any bare frame details I need. I appreciate the crank boss one, would it be possible to photo the boss weld on the chainwheel side?

If you are thinking of changing your bike from Brown to Green, no problem from me, it's your bike (-: Your's is a very late brown frame. Apparently some exist with mixed green and brown components, which could be through parts being swapped in service, or because parts were painted up seperately and there was no attempt to match paint colours on assembly.

Any details about colour changes and dates are always welcome, thank you.

For the jeep in Stockton, I know where it is (close to the church). It's just interesting how these things can be hidden away.

Incidentally, I once won the village hall in Stockton in a raffle (-:

It was the fruit and veg shop of the old Co-op building in Rugby. It is a concrete sectional building, and when it came for demolition, it was offered in a raffle to various  social groups in the area. I won, but couldn't find a means of moving it to a new site, so deferred to Stockton... (-:

Again, thanks for your help.

Best Regards,

Adrian

Same here.

It seems as if 2/3 of the page disappears in pointless unfocussed adverts.

I would normally not mention something like that, since I understand that a website has to be paid for somehow, (and very much appreciate it's existance), but to go from zero ads, to being one of the most intrusive for ads on all the sites I use, overnight, has been a bit of a nasty shock.

I won't quit the site (yet), but it makes it very difficult to use.

Thank you for the site, and listening to the comments of the members.

Best Rzgards,

Adrian

Hi again, john.

As it turns out we were writing at the same time (-:

So, flat topped fork (all the BSA wingnut types seem to be like this, soon after peaked returns for several thousand examples, then flat is back until the end), so the fork is the original, or at least the correct type.

Incidentally, red primer was used towards the end of production instead of the black enamel (-:

The downtube is welded direct to the bottom bracket, as you said. This went to the lugged version somewhere near R30500.

The crank arm photo is very interesting, since it seems the boss is welded to the arm. I've discussed this possibility with others, that BSA modified standard arms in stock when they knew there was a problem, and cast them later, but this is the first good example of the welded type I've seen. It could also mean that the chamfer on the outside edge originally occurred on both edges, so as to give a place for the weld bead to penetrate.

I hate to ask this, but I didn't know you had the crank out. Is it possible to take a picture of the two BSA marked cones (one each side?)

There's no urgency, I'm trying to see if they have date code letter on them like the K, H and J seen on these examples. Even just knowing what the letter are would be helpful.

Original photos: Ian Air Pilot

Thank you for you help.

The house with the jeep is probably well known in Stockton, for years there was a tipper open cab CCKW parked in the garden. It may still be there today!

Best Regards,

Adrian

Hi John,

The weather's a bit iffy here too, 30+°C, sun and storms, but totally usual for the time of year.

Thanks for your replies. Every little helps. (-:

The threaded crank arms I dobt I'll be able to resolve. It is rare that the original type pins have been removed, without pedals then being fitted, and so difficult to know if thee threading is original or not.

I do have a good photo of R33587's crank arm interior, showing no threading, so this is likely to be the case for at least half of the bikes made, and all with the the later 'conical' boss.

I look forward to your other details.

Best Regards,

Adrian

John, thanks for your prompt, and informative response too.

My first ride in a WW2 jeep was from Stockton Village down the A426 to Southam and back, around Christmas 1984. To my knowledge the jeep (and a BSA Parabike), are still interred in a garage in the village.

The questions are a little esoteric, I hope you'll forgive that.

So, your bicycle would have originally had a black enamel undercoat, any sign of that?

There appear to be three forms of crank arms. The earliest have just a flat face, like most bicycles, and may be tapped for bicycle pedals (so probably off the shelf items), as below.

Later bikes have a boss extension, probably to help support the pedal, and these come in two types. An 'early' version, below, which is tubular, with a chamfer:

And a later version, such as @Enigma below, a more conical casting.

Yours is likely to be plain, or the early boss type, they were just coming in when your bike was made.

The attachment of the down tube to the bottom bracket should be welded on yours (left frame in photo below, note frames are upside down) . Later this was improved by using a lugged fitting instead.(right frame)

Photo from @garys39

Yours should have an oil fitting offset to the rear of the bottom bracket, like both above.

Forks come in two types, with peaked or flat shoulders. Peaked are early, are replaced by flat, and then reappear mixed with flat in mid production. Flat are later, and are used exclusively by the end of production.

Peaked. Easy to see because there is an inverted V in the base of the bracket too.

Flat, again, the base of the bracket is flat, along with the shoulders.

Finally, very early tommy bars on the handlebar quick release were welded direct to the nut. Later, they were inserted in drilled holes in the nut. Yours should be the second type (photo from Enigma), as below.

I hope that makes some sense.

Best of Luck with the restoration. It's getting harder to find the pieces, but it sounds like you've got that covered. I look forward to seeing the results, and feel free to contact me should you think I can help in any way.

Best Regards,

Adrian

Hello, @John Bradshaw

Welcome to the forum, and taking the time to supply those details.

I had the serial number listed from the Captain Stevens list in Canada, but no additional details.

He noted you as being in Warwickshire. We may have met, since I come from Rugby, and used to do most of the local shows until I emigrated 20 years ago (you will see me on the same listings).

Yours is the last BSA wingnut bike recorded so far (I now have over 300 serials recorded from the production of 60,000+). They are a rare variant, about 1000 to 1500 (roughly 3 to 4%) seem to have had them. The example in Birmingham City Museum is a BSA wingnut type, but I don't have the s/n.

Below is the block including BSA wingnut bikes.

Does yourshave the original forks and crank? If so, could I ask you a couple more questiond to fill in the N/K's ?

Thanks.

Best Regards, Adrian

Hi @Tim efg

and Welcome.

Sorry, the images don't show.

Use the 

to upload images.

Best Regards,

Adrian

On 7/14/2015 at 7:38 PM, Le Prof said:

Hi Steveo578,

 

again, Thanks for the information on 37ZR79, it all helps.

 

Should my third Churchill plate resurface, I'll ask again, if you don't mind. However, it was a nice shiney thing, and it may have been souvineered during a recent move. 😞

 

Best Regards,

 

Adrian

Hi All,

Thread ressurection, eight years after my last comment above.

My third data plate just turned up. I maligned the movers, though they did pack it in a box of books I've only just got round to sorting out (umm, 20 years later?)

No photo at the moment, but the plate is the standard brass one marked:

TANK, INFANTRY MARK IV 

MAKERS N° VM2883 W.D. N° T31132

DATE  /1/42

i guess a Vauxhall Motors produced Churchill? Are any other details known on this one?

The plate came from a pile of brass shiney things at a steam fair, probably Husband's Bosworth.

Thanks for any help.

Best Regards,

Adrian

Hi @Mark Ellis

If you can't find NOS plates, Robert on this site should be able to make good reproductions:

https://dataplates4u.com/

Best Regards, Adrian

Hi @Morris C8

I was researching someting else in the Imperial War Museum archives, and came across these Dunkirk photos. I hope you don't mind me putting them here.

The following colour photos were taken in Dunkirk immediately after the evacuation, by Hermann Weper of the 13 German Mobile Assault Unit.

I have not included photos of dead soldiers.

Copyright is the Imperial War Museum as indicated.

Best Regards,

Adrian

(c) IWM COL287

German forces arrive in Dunkirk. The sea front at Dunkirk photographed immediately after the completion of the evacuation of the British Expeditionary Force earlier in the day. The crew of a light anti-tank gun of the German mobile assault unit Motorensturm 13 stand guard on the seafront. The gun is covered with a camouflaged cloth. Debris left by the British evacuation debris is visible in the background.

(c) IWM COL288

German forces arrive in Dunkirk. The sea front at Dunkirk photographed immediately after the completion of the evacuation of the British Expeditionary Force earlier in the day. Vehicles and troops of the German mobile assault unit Motorensturm 13, drawn up on the sea front at Dunkirk near one of the unit's light anti-tank guns.

(c) IWM COL289

German forces arrive in Dunkirk after the completion of the evacuation of the British Expeditionary Force earlier in the day. Clearing the blocked road into Dunkirk. Under the direction of their German captors, French troops push away an immobilised British Universal Carrier tracked vehicle.

(c) IWM COL290

On the outskirts of Dunkirk, a German officer interrogates two captured French officers who sit under guard near a roadside table laden with wine bottles. A German inflatable rubber dinghy is visible behind the table.

(c) IWM COL292

On the outskirts of Dunkirk, German officers confer by their vehicles at the roadside before moving into the town.

(c) IWM COL293

German troops pulling a 37mm anti-tank gun along a road near Dunkirk. Immobilised British Scout carriers are parked at the side of the road.

(c) COL294

German forces move into Dunkirk. Disarmed French soldiers file pass German officers on the outskirts of Dunkirk. The evacuation of the British Expeditionary Force had been completed a few hours earlier.

(c) IWM COL295

German forces move into Dunkirk hours after the evacuation of the British Expeditionary Force was completed. A beached French coastal patrol craft at low tide at Dunkirk. The ship is armed with a 75mm canon on its foredeck and probably dates from the First World War. A British Universal Carrier and a bicycle lie abandoned half buried in the sand.

(c) IWM COL296

German forces move into Dunkirk hours after the evacuation of the British Expeditionary Force. Curious German officers inspect the memorial to the French aviation pioneer, Louis Bleriot on the sea front at Dunkirk. It is surrounded by German vehicles and the litter of the British evacuation.

22 hours ago, Antoine said:

Bonjour c'est pour savoir si vous avez encore de la pièce détachée de votre remorque je vous remercie j'attends votre réponse cordialement

@Kevin bateman

Translation of @Antoine 's message.

Hello,

This is to know if you still have spare parts for your trailer?

Thank you.

I await your answer.

Cordially...

Excellent.

Berliet is a local company to me, as these things go.

Good Luck,

Best Regards,

Adrian

Hi @Citroman

You can use this site to trace the HQ's of various US Units during WW2.

https://history.army.mil/index.html

Kerkrade is not mentioned, but three units were at or near Eygelshoven. But all earlier than the incident you describe. However, perhaps checking other place names in the vicinity may show a unit on the correct date.

https://search.usa.gov/search?affiliate=cmh&query=Eygelshoven

Good Luck.

Best Regards,

Adrian

Flipped right side up for you.

@Blitzbuggy

Hi All,

CBU 910. Not currently taxed.

Best Regards,

Adrian

Hi Mike, @ferretfixer

I think white is the best choice.

I'm halfway through reviewing the bikes on my list, and it's surprising how few have the original markings. Also, almost all of the piled rifles are white. All of the patent markings are white, and the pheons black so far.

There's someone selling what appear to be sticker versions here, if nothing else turns up:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/261261651518

Best Regards,

Adrian

Hi Mike @ferretfixer

It's an interesting point, but I can't get enough pictures of that area to know if it's a real feature, or drilled to fit a mudguard. I suspect the latter.

At the beginning, I noted when the rear drop out lugs had been drilled for mudguards, but I've seen enough now to say the pattern is random, and some of the holes are really badly drilled. So, I'm pretty convinced they had undrilled lugs from the start. 

Gary, @garys39

I've done a first run through looking at the welded versus lugged saddle stems. 

Roughly, R? to R10000 aren't included because they are twin tube saddle stems.

R10000 to R30000 the stems are welded direct to the bottom bracket.

R30000 to R78000 have a lug on the bottom bracket for the stem.

Best Regards,

Adrian

Hi Gary @garys39

Thanks (I think....!) (-:

I didn't know about that, it's an interesting observation.

It looks like I'll be having to go back through the listings again. 

It's strange how, other than the twin and single saddle stem types, you tend to assume they are all the same, but the are several variations out there.

This may be an early/late thing.

T13439 early single tube production (my photo), tube welded on to the bottom bracket. 

R47383, mid production (Photo, Wing your Heel) Socket for tube on bottom bracket.

R61090, late production (Photo, Wing your Heel)

The early Twin Tube version has them welded direct to the bottom bracket, so perhaps this was continued onto the single tube version whilst they used up the bottom brackets on hand, or they found there were still problems with strength in this area, and reinfirced it with the socket? We'll see.

R2485, Twin Tube (Photo, Wing your Heel). Note broken frame welds too.

Thanks for your help.

You wouldn't happen to have the serial numbers of those two frames, please?

Best Regards,

Adrian

Hi Ron,

That's interesting that they should be close in serial number.. Mine didn't come from that batch, but from some others brought in by Jez Marren about 20 years ago.

The spread of numbers I have is pretty good, at least one or two from every thousand built. However one thing that the listing has is an anomaly, with no serial numbers recorded yet between R62836 and R73380, around 10000 frames. I'd like to find some numbers in this gap.

I had wondered if they'd been produced, then sent overseas Empire forces as a block. My searches are mainly USA and Europe, so they might not turn up frames in other countries. The only place I could think of was India. I contacted a BSA parabike owning friend out there, but his bikes weren't in this sequence, and he had no other information. The others I've located in India, or repatriated to the UK are also not from this block.

I even considered whether they'd been destroyed in an air raid on the factory, but I have no evidence of raids in mid to late 1943.

Being late production, I also wondered if they had gone into War Reserve stock. A problem remaining to be solved.

Best Regards,

Adrian

Hi Ron, @Ron

Thanks for the photos.

Yes, Lex is correct, that's a poorly struck R. In fact, I have your number from his contribution, but no details other than that, so the photos are helpful.

Just as an indication of how the list is going, the two bikes to either side of yours are in the USA. Actually, about half of those listed are in the USA.

R49247 is one of mine, repatriated to the UK from India, and now in France.

R50823 was in the UK, but exported to the USA a few years ago for a Discovery series Combat Dealers (or somesuch)

After a request this week, I'm now going back through the 260 references to try to record the colours of the original decals...

Best Regards,

Adrian

Hi Ron, @Ron

I have a feeling that's the guy I bought some from a good 25 years ago now. Pre internet days, and I had a very nice phone conversation with him at the time.

I remember he posted them in a piece of cut off plastic pipe, which was an interesting and uncrushable method of getting them to me. (-:

Thanks for your help, and details when they come.

Best Regards,

Adrian

Hi All,

I understand that Stuart Bray of Sturat Bray Motorcycles retired recently. He was one of the major sources for BSA Parabke parts in Europe.

I have recently bought a 'First Pattern' version of this bicycle which, whilst substantially complete, will need repainting,, and a few small parts.

I have found the handlebars, and Tommy bar (missing the arms, but it'll mend), but I have not been able to find another supplier of the BSA grips for thses bicycles, is anyone aware of one?

I am also looking for the BSA lamp bracket, if anyone knows of one for sale?

Leads to sources of other parts also welcome (-:

Finally, I got a little frustrated about the lack of centralised information on these bikes, not so much the history, but the model changes (there were a few!), so a month or so ago I created a change list for them by serial number. I now have more than 250 examples listed, with thanks for the help of Lex (Welboke) in supplying the information he had to help this project.

I intend to make the change information available to all soon, but if you'd like your bicycle included, please let me know the serial number to start with.

This thread will give you an idea of what I'm doing, and the help it can give.

https://hmvf.co.uk/topic/44944-bsa-para-bike-info-needed/

Thanks,

Best Regards,

Adrian

Hi @Enigma

Thanks for looking for that.

Stuart Bray retired in March, and is no longer selling BSA bicycle parts. So I'm looking for another supplier...

Best Regards,

Adrian