Commer Q2 with strange marking

[LarryH57]

This one is for RAFM  / Bryan.

A photo I mentioned on another post - a Commer Q2 4x2 2 Ton Tractor (and Taskers Queen Mary trailer) said to be from 9 MU(?) 

Why 49 over 41 ? Not a standard marking. Below the 41 appears to be  a bridging plate of 9 / 5 and if so is the circular marking on the drivers mudguard in use or blank?

Also there is a split in colour or between matt and gloss

Edited August 25, 2023 by LarryH57

[Noel7]

It looks as though the front of the mudguard and the adjacent bodywork have been recently painted over with something that has only partially obscured the earlier markings - there appears to be a roundel on the mudguard, as well as the partially obscured bridge plate [which I think is actually 9/2] and possibly something under the 49/41, although I'm not too sure about that. The 49/41 and the bridge plate on the mudguard have then been applied over that. I think the later bridge plate [if that is what it is] is blank - it's difficult to be sure because of the lighting, but about half of the disc is visible and does not seem to have any markings.

[RAFMT]

This one has come up before. As Noel7 said, the whole bottom corner has clearly been repainted.

The roundel has been covered over, probably because it was supposed to be on the nearside.

The 41 could indicate 41 group, of which 9MU was a member, but all MUs in 41 Group were Aircraft Storage Units while this photo is usually captioned as a crashed aircraft being recovered. 43 Group handled aircraft salvage, and more intriguingly, 49MU was one of those.

[ted angus]

Bryan.  Roundel should be on offside for traffic control purposes. .my guess is 49 mu. Fleet number 41:   Ted

Edited August 31, 2023 by ted angus

[RAFMT]

Of course, you're right Ted. I blame the brain fart on lack of sleep due to being in and out of the quacks with heart issues.

 

I would also have guessed fleet number, but I wasn't sure if an MU had that many vehicles, so was trying to take a look first. 

[ted angus]

Bryan sorry to hear you are not too well ,  crappy year here as well shingles, covid, chest infection. I would guess 49 mu had cranes. QM and other trailers. Tractor units for the trailers. Motor cycles recovery convoy duties. Trucks [ often Dodge 3 tonners carrying lifting tackle jacks etc ] in support of recovery tasks, 15 cwt or tilly for convoy commander.  On MUs in the 1950/60/70s I am pretty sure that MUs had seperate M T establishment to the station they were based on, but during WW 2 I think some MUs were stand alone units on a particular site. This would then generate a domestic fire tender. A couple of trailer pumps, at least one domestic ambo. A tipper for coke delivery to the huts and messes. Possibly a sullage tender if no mains sewage. A ration carrying tender. Unit commanders car. Passenger carrying vehicles for welfare runs to the nearest town and moving personnel to the nearest railhead.  Vehicle or vehicles to collect stores from the nearest railhead and/or the nearest operational station that was on the priority freight distribution circuit. So i think we could reach 41 vehicles.  Assuming my 49 over 41 theory is correct. As an aside i would be very interested in any squadron, unit or station mt establishment you might unearth.     TED

 

[LarryH57]

Thanks all for your thoughts on this matter.

[ted angus]

A fantastic film on the IWM  SITE.  The repair and salvage of lancaster EE 193. 8 reels  . A single convoy for a lanc appears to be at least 6 possibly 8 QMs . 2  gs tenders with tools jigs etc . 

[LarryH57]

I guess Ted you are on to something.  Firstly that MUs involved in aircraft recovery in WW2, were never short of work!  With sections of each aircraft recovery MU being despatched to various locations, it would be logical and quick & easy to number your vehicles, for the job, rather than recite their standard RAF registration numbers and RAF Group Number in Maintenance (M/??) in any local orders. 

I guess also that an MU might have an official base but only despatch, what was needed to the locations as required for the job. It could also be that the entire MU fleet was numbered for a potential move. However logic says in war the CO's Tilly or staff car would not be Vehicle No.1.

Consequently, the Officer in charge of despatch would just see what was available by random vehicle number (rather than RAF registration) and list them in his orders by their single of double digit number and the RAF drivers would go to their 'MT yard', prepare the correct vehicles and off they would go.

Also is there a Maintenance Command list of all the subsections in each Group; Are these available in an AMO, somewhere, plus details of the patch they covered, especially for aircraft revovery? Their work surely needed a patch to cover, wheras the Aircraft Storage MUs would have different requirements, related to aircraft type etc and be as far away from the Luftwaffe aa possibl..

Edited September 12, 2023 by LarryH57

[ted angus]

I have done some further research into the content of the film.  The aircraft was based at RAF Scampton,  it returned to its base post raid and its undercarriage collapsed on landing at Scampton . I was stationed at Scampton in 68-70,  in the film houses can be seen in several shots in the background, they are to the south west of the 04 end of the runway.. The R & S team were from No 58 MU which had its base at Newark. It was obviously built from scratch for the purpose . Its very basic and would only be equipped with the facilities to carry out its task. There is a website on WW2 RAF organisation and it details the composition of all the Groups at various times during the war.  There are several MU that are purely R & S and they all appear to have bare bones bases.  Yes they would each have a patch.  I still have more digging to do and my next quests are to work out from the film how many QM  would be on a task for a Lancaster;  It took 2 to carry the engines and props alone. I also need to identify the repair location. EE 193 was rebuilt and was later lost on ops with the loss of all crew.  Ted.

https://www.rafweb.org/

[RAFMT]

Here are the areas covered by each RSU.

This photo was probably taken prior to the introduction of command letter markings. What would be nice, is if someone were to track down the source of the photo. That would add a whole lot of info that gets lost when a photo is disassociated from its context. 

[ted angus]

Hi Bryan I am struggling to identify the unit they took EE193 to,  Avro had a Lancaster repair depot on land belonging to RAF Langar which is not too far from Newark, I have accessed their records and EE193 was not rebuilt by them plus there buildings do not match the building where EE193 was unloaded. The building do conform to RAF Sealnd but that is a long trek for a convoy of QMs. 

regards TED.

[LarryH57]

Another Commer Q2 4x2  and flatbed trailer, with a ?50 marking on the cab door that might suggest another variation of numbering the stock of vehicles at an MU.

The vehicles has an RAF Registration, and briging plate and has a camo paints scheme, which gives an indication of the year but no RAF roundel yet

Also it looks like the chalk marks are still visible between te camo as a guide to where each colour should be painted.

Edited September 13, 2023 by LarryH57

[RAFMT]

Ted - I'll take a look and see what I can find when I'm next in the office.

The photo above also shows the aluminium screw on letters for the RAF on the door.

[ted angus]

Bryan . I watched the films again. And in a couple of very brief shots there are stands or trestle adaptors that are marked 30 MU.  30MU was at Sealand and digging into Sealand reveals it was a repair centre for Lancasters. The hangar types are as in the film So i think we can safely say Sealand was the repair location foe EE 193.

I worked out 7 qm to move a repairable Lanc.    Ted

Edited September 13, 2023 by ted angus

[RAFMT]

23 hours ago, LarryH57 said:

Another Commer Q2 4x2  and flatbed trailer, with a ?50 marking on the cab door that might suggest another variation of numbering the stock of vehicles at an MU.

Had another look, and I'm not saying it isn't ?50, but it could just as easily be ?S(O/D).

 

Ted, great bit of detective work there!

[LarryH57]

Dear Ted,

Regarding the salvage of Lancster EE193, does the attached help?

Regards

Larry

[ted angus]

Many thanks, 24 MU was origially RAF Ternhill,  in 1942 The MU site was renamed RAF Stoke Heath; I have checked which hangars they had and they fit perfectly with those in the film  i.e. Lamella and Type D. Still a long haul from Lincs though.  I have now worked out to move a repairable Lanc it took 8 QMs !! in the shot attached, 6 complete QMs can be seen, on the right is the nose of a Bedford OX  this will have the fuselage centre section(with wing roots). missing from the shot is a second QM carrying 2 engines- the second from the left is carrying 2 engines  So that would make a great modelling project for somebody !!  TED.

 

Edited October 8, 2023 by ted angus
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