Runflat

As you say Tim, the first is nice and easy; especially after recent postings. But the second, with that vertical steering column is just as easy! Both from America, of course. But then you know what they are as well.

How can you tell if the T is civilian or military - I didn't think they even had chassis numbers. The only differences I was aware of was between early and late models: something to do with lugs? Oh, haven't twigged what the chassis with green wheels is yet. Drilled front cross member makes me think of Leyland, Locomobile & Morris Commercial, but discounted all of them. I'll probably kick myself when you tell me. In the first batch, the one with yellow wheels, it could be an International. Compare and contrast with this example (which is an International despite the caption) taken at Canadian Forces Base Borden Military Museum, Ontario:

Some great photos there of what is one of the worlds best collections of early buses, if not the best - all restored by one dedicated man and his team. Ignoring the countless hours of work, the remains of over 50 vehicles were collected to gather enough parts to bring these vehicles back to life! Running through them: LN7270 - London Central, Leyland X2, of 1908 (the one with the yellow chassis, not as captioned above) HE12 - Barnsley & District 'Combination Car' of 1913 LF9967 - Wellingborough, Leyland S3.30.T, of 1913 CC1087 - L&NWR, Leyland S4.36.T3, 'Torpedo' char-a-bancs, of 1914 C2367 - Todmorden No.14, Leyland G, of 1921 BD209 - "Charabus", Leyland G7, of 1921 (not pictured) DM2583 - White Rose, Leyland SG7, of 1923 XU7498 - Choclate Express, Leyland LB5, of 1924

Tim, people are going to see red: http://www.chrishodgephotos.co.uk/funpics/pixww/2003/03lb45.jpg

DTA doesn't give much of a clue, but TDA is Timken Detroit Axle Co

Yes, purely coincidental. The "H" series allocations by Middlesex County Council in 1920 used up otherwise void numbers from a series that had been issued to civilians between December 1903 and July 1912. The MCC then started a habit of setting aside blocks of numbers to be issued to the military as and when. Numbers from the "MH" series were issued to civilians between July 1924 and August 1925 but issues from this series to the military, out of the block set aside, may not have been in the same time frame. Later prefixes (with civvy issuing dates) include "MK" (8/25-9/26), "ML" (9/26-8/27), "MP" (8/27-8/28), "MT" (8/28-6/29), "MY" (6/29-5/33), "MG" (3/30-3/49), "HX" (6/30-3/33) and "MV" (7/31-6/33). As you can see a bit overlap in when they were used. They then moved onto three letter prefixes.

No! To comply with the Roads Act 1920 military vehicles would have had a civilian registration number. This is in addition to their military serial number. The Bovington Rolls-Royce wears both as does the the one in the first photo. As has been said before, these civvy numbers were often from number blocks allocated to, and then by, Middlesex County Council. "H" and "MH" are both Middlesex series - the 'M' does not mean military. The "H" records are believed destroyed. The "MH" records are said to still exist. I'll send you the details.

I see what you mean - you would expect contract V3621 to be allocated numbers not too far adrift to V2980. But quite bizare that they went back to fill in the early gaps rather than just continue from where they were. (NB It took me a bit of time to work out what you were talking about - there is a typo in the reprint: Contract V2980 would seem to start at M36273. I was looking on the wrong page!) It would be interesting to know if anyone has quoted how many vehicles were on hand in 1933 - 5208 is very exact number but strikes me as being a bit low. I didn't mean to imply that 150001 was the first true number for 'impresed' civvy vehicles - it just seemed a number that was an obvious certainty. The first could well be 46001. As you say it would be interesting if one prior to 33000 is found. (For those reading, but not following, this exchange you probably need to arm yourself with a copy of the 1944 Chilwell "B" vehicle listing as reprinted by Groucho Publishing: http://www.milweb.net/go/groucho/index.htm )

Don't know!

Yes, Bulford as in the camp. But a bit of over exuberance on my part with regard to "BL" - this can go in the mystery pile. A nice line-up of BL numbered trucks appears in Michael Young's book 'Army Service Corps 1902-1918' but it was taken in Italy. The reference to "NZ" is derived from a photograph in a third party's collection. My notes simply say 'New Zealand troops'.

Thanks for the reference to Hodges' work - I should have looked there. The existence of an 'intermediate' series in the 1920s clarifies things. Looking at the early entries in the "B" vehicle listing, I agree with your comment to the extent that "impressed" means the numbers were allocated to existing holdings, rather than new orders. But I doubt Chilwell had lost those early records (why loose, for example, 1-5208, 5231-5953 and 6609-7426 yet have the ones in-between, which had been allocated to new vehicles?). Remember, the "B" vehicle listing is simply a high level summary that links blocks of vehicle numbers to purchase contract and type. To complete the listing in relation to existing holdings would have meant looking at hundreds of individual records to work out which contract they were purchased under and what the type of vehicle was; and then enter each one as a single line entry. Far simpler to carve out all of these random transfers and treat them as "impressed". Later entries marked "impressed" (say at 150001+), which comes just after an allocation marked "captured", probably means just that - i.e. transport taken up from civvy street.

Thanks MarkV As an aside, and I forgot to mention this in my first posting, you occasionally see photos of vehicles with an anchor in place of the broad arrow. Presumably this would be some sort of naval detachment.

I've found some more on this in "Kraftfahrzeuge und Panzer des Osterrichischen Heeres 1896 bis heute" - looks like the trailers had two sets of articulating 4-wheeled bogies, just like a train!

Toad on YouTube:

I came across this on eBay... looks like the trailer (and barrel) http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=380040785508&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT&ih=025

MarkV My understanding is that Bart's collection went to the General George C Marshall Museum at Zwindrecht in the Netherlands... Of course the Museum closed and its collection went to the National War and Resistance Museum at Overloon. (http://www.oorlogsmuseum-overloon.nl/index.php?t=en) For whatever reason, I understand Bart's collection is still in boxes and so is currently unable to be used for research. If any one knows better, I'd love to know! Oh, I'd be interested in swaping data. Send me a private message. 79x100 - The 'new' list from 1933 has been bugging me. Looking at some 1920s photos, I've found several of post WW1 vehicles wearing very low numbers with the "A" (as ambulance), "L" (as lorry), or "V" (as van) prefixes. Which either means there is an intermediate list or the 1933 list started earlier.

As Steve has said, no one to our knowledge has a definitive explanation of the WW1 letter/numbering system. We've not yet come across, or found someone who has seen, a master list, although there are rumours the late Bart Vanderveen had one (but they may be getting muddled with later Chilwell lists). This is my own take on things based on the photographic evidence seen, plus input from a chap in Australia who is also working on the subject. All open for debate! First the prefixes: "L", "LA" and "LC" appear to relate to vehicles used in the Mediterranean region and India - the 'L' being common to all of these. "M" probably relates to the western front theatre of operations. (NB This series goes well beyond four digits - the highest so far is M70054 on a Sunbeam tourer staff car.) "A", "LA", "RA" appear to relate to ambulances - the 'A' being the common factor. "RA", "RC", "RL", "RLX" are probably specific to vehicles allocated to the Red Cross - the 'R' being the common factor. "C", "LC" and "RC" relate in the main to cars of various types - the 'C' being the common factor. However, Ford model 'T's of various types would also seem to be included, plus armoured cars (in the "LC" series"). "S" appears to relate to steam vehicles. "CV" appears to mean 'captured vehicle'. "EFC" appears to mean 'Expeditionary Force Canteens'. "BL" and "BUL" is probably 'Bulford'. "NZ" is probably 'New Zealand'. "D", "K", "PL" and "SR" are a bit of a mystery. As Steve suggests, the numbers would have been issued in sequence. You may find several vehicles of the same type with consecutive numbers simply because they came off the production line together / were allocated to units at the same time. At this point it may be worth making the observation that it is unlikely each prefix had its own series of numbers starting at 0001. Some probably did. But most prefixes seem to be bolted onto a main number sequence. With regards to the broad arrow. I don't believe this forms part of the serial number. There are standing orders saying that the arrow should be applied to the vehicle and by and large this seems to have been followed. The exceptions seem to be, essentially, vehicles in the various Red Cross allocations and the odd local ommission. When applied, the norm is to see it between the prefix and the number. Interested to see the suggestion that the 'new' series started in 1933. That means numbers appearing on RASC vehicles in the 1920s are a continuation of the WW1 series. These typically appear as the prefix & number within a large oval or circle and do not use the broad arrow, which reinforces my view that the arrow does not form part of the serial number. To add further confusion, there are also loads of WW1 examples where there is no prefix at all - just the number (with normally a broad arrow before it). Alan

A wonderfully rare photo of a Austro-Daimler C-Zug, also known as 'Gigant'. Designed by Ferdinand Porsche for transporting heavy Skoda howitzers and motors on road and rail (normal and Russian guage). Each 38cm M16 howitzer required five C-Zuge (i.e. tractor plus a four-axle 30-ton trailer) - one each for the left and right base, one for the mount, one for the barrel and one for ammunition.

Actually, looks as if most of the coverage is pre-WW1 and your questions are not answered! Intuitvely I'd say that they were not under the subsidy scheme as not built to WD spec. So if they were impressed the owner woud be entitled to compensation. Drivers often volunteered to go with an impressed vehicle being sworn in to the services virtually on the spot; but this is unlikely to have been compulsorary (save for a bit of arm twisting). The first bus drivers with their MET Daimlers are, perhaps, a good example.

A quick dip in the library unearths: "Steam Traction in the Royal Engineers" by Col J Nowers, 1994, North Kent Books, ISBN 0-948305-07-X "Military Traction Engines and Lorries 1858-1918" by R W Kidner, 1975, The Oakwood Press Pre-WW1 there is also the famous "Mechanical Traction in war" by Lieut-Col Otfried Layriz 1900 (reprinted 1973, David & Charles, ISBN 0-7153-6078-7) Not checked to see if they answer your questions though!

...as are the seven spoke fronts. The crawler is a Lorraine-Dietrich.

Agree all of them. The first and third are the same - the seven spoke rear wheels are quite distinctive!

The wagon has metal wheels, not unlike a traction engine. So clearly used for transporting something heavy. But not pontoons/bridging equipment - they were transported on wagons with wooden wheels. A look at 'British Artillery Weapons and Ammunition 1914-1918' shows a similar device used for transporting a 12in Siege Howitzer. Not the lightest of things! It goes on say that the howitzer was transported in six loads - barrel; cradle; carriage; bedplate; earthbox; and miscellaneous components - and assembled by an ingenious inter-connection of the various transport wagons plus some hard work with winches. With the carriage assembled in position two steel girder ramps were laid and the howitzer transport wagons winched up until it could be securely locked to the carriage. A screw-jack beneth it, working on the tail of the platform, allowed the barrel to be raised on the wagon springs until it was precisely aligned with the cradle, when it was winched forward until the barrel guide strips engaged in the cradle guide-ways; the barrel was then run home and the gun lug secured to the recoil system. The (demountable) guide ramp can be seen on the top of the wagon - the narrow strip with the sloping ends. Doesn't answer why the officers are hoping around. Perhaps they are demonstrating what to do if the barrel falls on your toes.

I think the first is a De Dion. It compares well with examples in 'Les Camion des Victoire 1914-1918' pages 94/95. The second could be a Daimler-Krupp BAK (Ballonabwehrkanone or balloon defence gun). But all my reference material shows them with a greater number of radiator louvres and different front wheels. So, happy to be told it is an Ehrhardt.

Tim, you're so modest not to plug your own work. For anyone who wants to have a read-up on these fine trucks have a look at Military Machine International, October 2007. The Grudon's Pierce Arrow R8 also appears in Wheels & Tracks #66, in the Before and After section. For MVT members, have a look at Windscreen #106, p88 for another view of the Crossley IGL3/Rolls Royce line up.