wdbikemad

Evidence reveals that these machines went over to France with the BEF (plus some came back.....!)......there exist photos of BEF troops arriving back in the UK, several on Triumph twins......

Sufficient of these models remained in WD service (up to 41 I think) to be featured as a machine worthy of military workshop servicing in that well-known wartime publication by the "Motor Cycle" / "Motor Cycling" magazine "Hints & Tips on the Servicing of WD Motor Cycles"........:-D

Now have 3 of the above sleeping bags and all 3 slightly different(1 possibly quite special:-))-was there an ARCTIC version of the bag made?

There was......but from memory it wasn't the same as the standard 58 bag........

I have NOS pack L-straps, bayonet frog, ammo pouches (2nd pattern) and small pack (1st pattern) all in this light green unmarked webbing.........

It looks to be UK manufactured as the assembly quality is fairly high........but I can only assume that it was intended for export....? This gear was certainly made whether in the UK or otherwise in a sand-colour for use by various Middle Eastern armies, so maybe the green was for similar or Far East applications....?

UK issue 44 webbing doesn't seem to have been manufactured after the late 60s (I haven't come across any) although it remained on issue until the late 70s/early 80s so limited manufacture may have continued.....? Large stocks of 44 webbing in new condition were still around during the 80s, with loads disposed of as surplus.........so I'm not too certain on this one........:undecided:

They could well be. Thanks for the pic.

 

Slightly odd request; if someone has a size 3 P53 or P60 smock to hand, could they tell me what it measures across the chest? I ask as the size label on the P53 smock above is faded out and I can't decide whether it's a size 3 or merely a generous size 2.

The 1960 pattern smock manufacturing specification size chart (dated '62, pre "modified" sleeve design) states that a Size 3 is for height 5'3" to 5'6" and chest 40"-43" and waist 34"-37"........edge to edge (excluding front flap) chest is 57 & 1/2" around, waist 49" and lower hem 56"............some of this should appear on the label.....

Essentially, the early (pre-63) 60 pattern smock is the same as the 51/52 pattern Korean issue but with the lining reduced to finish at waist level......but the cut and measurements were the same.........although some smocks (and trousers) will be longer in the body due to further mods introduced during the early 60s....

There were (as far as I know) no orders regarding the application of rank insignia to early combat dress........so many NCO's applied rank stripes and emblems as per battledress, whether tropical or European patterns..........

Restrictions on insignia worn on combat dress were generally regulated by individual units, and were really only made official following the introduction of DPM cammo clothing during 1970........in short, with the latter only rank insignia could be worn, plus para and flying wings........initially, this was of earlier patterns, but by the late 70's the subdued issue-pattern rank insignia was the norm........it was not until the 90s that the various coloured TRF and unit insignia began to reappear on combat clothing......

Steve - would be good to see a few photos of the specific NI version you mention, when you get the chance.

 

Is it significantly different from the examples in this thread?

Indeed Jason.....I am referring to the nylon single shell "crisp packet" Army nylon waterproofs........zip and stud-fastened front and very basic trousers.......these first appeared during the mid-70s in green and were intended for troops padding the streets in the commonly wet conditions encountered in NI......the green was considered less provocative, but also as DPM print on nylon was at that stage still under development........but by the late 70s the DPM version appeared, almost identical but with a few minor modifications.....these remained in service for the Falklands era up to around 1984 when the heavier PVC (sweaty) version appeared that was supposed to be more robust.....a black-lined fuel-resistant version of the latter suit was also produced...........these lasted until DPM goretex made an appearance........

It's often an eye-opener to see the variety of bikes impressed into German military usage, the majority of which were acquired following the fall of the low countries and France in 1940......the German's appear to have run the refurbishment of such vehicles with typical efficiency, in many cases with NSKK units tasked to deal with the jobs en-mass..........and British bikes apart, large numbers of French and Belgian machines were also utilised.......

After 1941 a great number of impressed bikes and other vehicles of all descriptions went east following the invasion of Russia.......the majority remained there....

Nice to see some variant manufacturers of these garments.......

As mentioned in my earlier post, very early production for the RAF and in the old size range, were made throughout in a much lighter nylon that was the same as later used for the lining on the more common heavy versions........these early examples are also rather "shiny" in appearance and have velcro in bottle green rather than olive.......I have a nearly new example of the early pattern somewhere....

Although issued to the Army, it seems that this wasn't universal by any means, most troops retaining the various thin nylon waterproofs in (initially) green, then DPM, followed by the heavier PVC DPM version..........the early army version in green, specifically introduced for NI, is very rare today (I have one, but it's fairly well worn).......the main reason would appear to have been cost, the double-lined RAF version being far more expensive (and effective) than the cheaper crisp packet suits.......

Seemingly, horns were standardised by the late-war period, similar to handlebar controls, thus whether made by Lucas, Klaxon or Clear Hooters, etc, most conformed to the Lucas pattern and as such usually bore no manufacturer mark......

Whilst fitting the correct pattern horn to my bikes, I never bother if they're working or not.......£100-odd quid is a lot of dosh for something that is large, heavy and arguably inaudible over the noise of the exhaust ! I tend to fit a small, cheap (and loud) 6-volt modern horn under the fuel tank (usually hidden between the fuel tank bridge and attached to the upper frame tube) for noise, but put the original in the correct location with dummy wires.........

Works for me.....:-D

Id have to agree that yours is more museum-orientated Ron, well, a working one to be more specific ! Plus you compliment it with vehicles, artillery, posters, etc, not just bikes.......

In my case it got to a workshop, two very overcrowded garages and the remainder under tarpaulins....that's when it dawned on me "what am I doing...?".....as my facilities never quite matched my big ambitions....!!!:-D

At one point in my life, I had around 33 WD bikes.......about 6 up and running and the rest pending......I was constantly flicking between any number of them, but not really getting anywhere.......

It dawned upon me one particular day, when going out on a run, that I couldn't decide on what to ride..........

After getting my head together, it dawned upon me that I'd put accumulation above my actual pleasure......

So I seriously had a purge............nowadays, I'm down to a running Ariel and Norton, plus a James ML project........and that's proven more than enough to keep on top of....!!! After all, I only manage to use the running examples barely a few times each per year........

I am fortunate enough to have the means to top up my numbers should I choose.......but I've elected not to........Mrs M loves the bikes, but I hark back to her words "Do you need it.....? No...? Then there's your answer...........".........wise words from the compact one......

Am I more in focus now....? I think so........:-D

Hmmm - dunno how I missed that. Should look closer and not jump to conclusions I guess. Still the 63 Patt Olive smock is still THE piece missing from my collection....

Hey Jason ! It's easily done.....I bought something only last year for the bike and didn't look at the part on the jumblers stall closely enough even though it was examined in my own hands....and I forked out £25 quid for the wrong part.... ...I was looking for a switch with the positions "Off, T, H, L" rather than the common "Off, T, L, H"..........unbelievably, I bought the wrong one despite knowing what I was looking for...........what a plonker...:-(

That book by Ken Messenger, "The Winged Wheel Patch", although about Canadian DR's, is FULL of personal accounts of experiences of DR's in WW2 in Canada, the UK, Europe and Italy.....plus tons of great photos.......it's sadly now long out of print and copies seem to be hugely pricey when available.......

Spot-on Ron.....a 16H, late-40 to mid-41 manufacture I'm estimating by the fitting of the pannier-type toolboxes and later speedo bracket....:-D

Sadly, NOT a 63 pattern olive green windproof........these were made in olive drab cotton gabardine (not denim or sateen), had the thick green 50s/60s combat smock cords fitted at the lower hem, had wrist adjustment tabs and buttons and a full-length frontal zipper and wind-baffle.........the older denim version (the fabric being the same as denim BD, tanksuits, etc) did not have any of these features.........the green 63 pattern garments did not appear until at least 1964 and lasted until 1970-ish in production.....

The green denim smock (and trousers) were first introduced as early as 1941 (I have such a smock myself dated "Nov 41").........these were indeed part of the "snow suit" ensemble of various specialist items intended for mountain troops.....

The smock and trousers were intended to be worn in cold, dry, snow-less conditions.....the items are often referred to as "heavy" garments..........labels can confusingly vary in nomenclature, and can state "Smock", "Smock Drab", "Smock Snow", "Snow Smock", etc (and similar variation for the matching trousers)......

The denim garment can be regarded as THE very first "SAS" pattern smock.......it was followed by the white version in heavy cotton, the various sand-colour versions in lightweight gabardine or poplin, and finally by the cammo version from 1943 onwards.........only the cammo version featured the wrist and lower-leg adjustment tabs and buttons, plus post-war manufactured cammo and green garments......

Manufacture of the original green denim suit lasted from 1941 to about 1943........these items used to be fairly common, and cheap........but the trousers were rarely encountered, even back then.......

The reverse side of wartime green denim is generally a distinct "grey" shade, but I can't see that clearly on the smock featured. I wonder if it has been dyed at some point....? Buttons fitted were either dark-brown or khaki-brown vegetable fibre composition.....plus, most drab denim smocks and trousers I've seen were fitted with white or pale-drab drawtapes.....if these are any other colour I would suspect dyeing of the garment.........if it is not denim fabric, but a thicker cotton cloth then I would suspect a white snow smock that has also been dyed green at some point......this might account for the lack of label that would also have become dyed......

Even if dyed, too valuable to use for hill-walking methinks....

I had been thinking magneto........the one fitted to the W/NG was professionally restored when I first built her (years ago)....and it failed within 300 miles....however, the magneto restorer sorted it out in no time (duff condensor from a dodgy batch) and since then she's run without problem. When I rebuilt the Ariel for the second time around 2006, a stripped the unit down for cleaning but she seemed fine and again has remained working well.........

I have a couple of refurbished armatures stored in a warmish/dry place in the house, so when time permits I'll take off the mag and put one of these in. Everything points to the mag, so I won't waste time fannying around looking at other things..........as mentioned above, the Ariel's magneto isn't the easiest to remove, as you need a particular threaded puller to draw off the sprocket and the three bolts holding the unit onto the engine/gearbox plate can be a pain to access due to the oil pipes and footrest support obstructing things.....but it's not as bad as some tasks......:-)

The strange thing is, I had fuel and a decent spark throughout the wait.........I checked every damn thing.....

I put it down to age and temperament.............

At least I amused my better half.......(and I will never hear the end of it either....>)...........

Old MV's......hate 'em, love 'em.......but I wouldn't part with them.............:-)

Ryan....nice items !!!! I can now see the rationale behind your question about post-war manufacture, the trousers shown being dated "1956"............thus you are asking if similar smocks were also made post-war...?

Your trousers, dated 1956, are marked "GDS"..........this is not a manufacturer.......this actually stands for "Garment Development Section", that later evolved into the Stores, Clothing, Research and Development Establishment (SCRDE) and then "Defence Clothing and Textiles Agency" (DCTA)........

From what I can see, the trousers appear standard (earlier wartime pattern) but may have been made by/for the GDS as part of an ongoing trial programme...............detailed examination may reveal subtle differences from wartime manufacture (eg - fabric composition, etc).................the GDS often made garments "in-house" for trial purposes and this may have included earlier and new designs for comparison trials when developing new patterns of clothing........

Your trousers also display a "Vocabulary" number, commonly found on and associated with Naval issue clothing........this suggests that these trousers were possibly a trial/evaluation example for Royal Navy applications, most likely for Royal Marines or Special Boat Squadron (SBS), or the Mountain and Arctic Warfare Cadre..........as mentioned, it was not unusual for earlier or existing patterns of clothing to be adopted for evaluation.....I have also seen examples of the post-war (pre-59 pattern) Denison smock bearing Naval vocabulary numbers and most likely intended and ordered under naval contracts for issue to Marines.................each service having their own unique patterns of certain items even if identical or similar to existing garments (eg - RAF wartime "Heavy Duty Dress" that was basically a RAF copy of the utility pattern army khaki serge battledress with a few subtle differences)............

Either way, the smock is standard wartime and very nice, but the trousers are a little bit more special and a rare example of post-war trials clothing.........:-D

Our lovely old W/NG, owned for years and restored twice, doesn't get used a great deal nowadays.........we took her out today because the 16H's MoT has just run out and I'm too busy / lazy to re-do her before MoT's are no longer needed from November 18th 2012 onwards for pre-60 vehicles......:-\

She started beautifully, and ran like a top, even after stopping for fresh fuel......

Passing through Calne bike meet in Wiltshire today, we stopped and shut her off to enjoy the sun and stretch our legs......but there we remained for over an hour......:embarrassed:.......

"Nancy" refused to re-start........I tried ever bloody trick imaginable, including attempting a bump-start...........after depositing my heaving, sweaty self next to a smiling Mrs Madden enjoying a ciggy on the grass verge, I admitted defeat and called recovery.......we were over 20 miles from base......

Incredibly, minutes before recovery arrived, a good friend passed on a WLA and stopped......after chewing the fat for a time, he prodded the kickstart and she fired up and ticked over normally......just as recovery arrived...

Bloody typical.......guess the old girl, 70 this year, was just being a temperamental old lady........she got us back, faultlessly, running as sweet as ever...........

Don't you just LOVE old British iron.............:-)

My right leg will never be the same again.............

hi i recently come across a nos ww2 windproof smock and i was just wondering if they ever made post war ones.

Is it the cammo version ? If so, they were made post-war in small numbers (I have seen several post-war dated examples), right up to 1963-4-ish I think.....and the last examples having the "1963 pattern" full length frontal zip and windflap fitted......but around 64-65 the olive-drab version entered production (1963 pattern) replacing the cammo variety........this lasted until 1970-71 when the DPM version (in heavy cotton-sateen) appeared........

Many wartime smocks and trousers remained on issue however, some being fitted with the full length zip...........but to my knowledge, no white or sand-coloured versions were made after WW2 due to sufficient wartime stocks remaining......

How about a photo...?

I confess to having a particular liking for the G3L - admittedly it's a pig to get at things, and the engineering can seem occasionally perverse, but that's also why it's such a beautifully compact bike. Ground clearance is very rarely an issue, especially with the tucked in exhaust pipe, and the tele forks make it the most comfortable to ride. Add a pair of H.L. cams and an extra tooth on the engine sprocket and it can be reasonably quick as well, with handling to match. It's true that they need setting up with care, but then again don't they all? The Triumph is probably the best of them all on the road, but the mud in Americas field on Thursday saw the 3HW surfing along on it's bash plate with very little in the way of foreward motion. I suppose that the Ariel would be first choice in conditions like that seeing as it really is a trials iron, but I've heard it said that it can get a bit fidgety on the road at speed.

In the end it just comes down to personal preferences and availability - they're all good'uns, and sheparding a convoy is an absolute hoot.

Jack, it was great to meet, and the invitation stands

Ariel's, and Nortons, have some good ground clearance on them....both having allegedly "competition" frames......perhaps the worst offender for ground clearance is the M20, which coupled with the weight can make it a bit of a pig on soft, muddy ground.....

Ariel's are not at all fidgety at speed in my experience, unless the fork bushes, springs and head bearings are shot......both Norton's, Ariel's and later Royal Enfield CO's have additional side check-springs on the forks that assist with rigidity and undue flexing and hold a perfect line........though it's fair to say that as with anything, setting up correctly, wear and maintenance all play a part in any bike's handling.......

Another factor with Ariel's and Norton's is the one-piece frame, reducing the flexing that you can get with two-piece assemblies with worn bolt holes, etc.........:-)

That'll be good Steve. A nice little wrens outfit would fit the bill for Vee. You know the ones that have to be hitched up to expose the stocking tops when climbing on board.

Does she know about the camping malarkey? The excitements in tents!!

 

Ron

Vee has assured me that she has considerable previous experience in flashing her stocking tops....(they go rather nicely with her corset collection......:cool2:).........mind you, she did a spell in the Wren's (for real) in the 70's so I think that her ATS kit will get an airing at the 70th..........

She is also a "tent veteran" so no fears in that department...........:angel:

She has, however, advised that you pack a camping pacemaker....or better a defib' kit......apparently, it may be necessary......:-D

Yes not very well known and as the numbers made must be quite small they seldom turn up. At the end of each brace there are three inch loops to enable them to be slipped over a waistbelt. One of them has a loop to enable them to be crossed over in the small of the back just like '37 pattern.

 

 

They're listed in COSAs as Patt. '58 as follows:

 

8465-99-130-0246 BRACES, INDIVIDUAL EQUIPMENT

Detail SAS; webbing; cotton; olive drab; 43. 3/8 in. lg o/a 1958 Pattern; web equipment

 

8465-99-130-0247 POUCH, AMMUNITION, 1958 Pattern, Self loading rifle

Detail Webbing, cotton; olive drab. For use by SAS Regt only

 

8465-99-130-0248 POUCH, AMMUNITION, 1958 Pattern, Armalite

Detail Webbing, cotton; olive drab. For use by SAS Regt only

 

8465-99-130-0249 POUCH, RATION, ESCAPE

Detail Webbing, cotton; olive drab. 1958 Pattern for SAS Regt only

 

8465-99-130-0250 POUCH, ALTIMETER

Detail Webbing cotton; olive drab; 1958 Pattern; web equipment for SAS only

 

8465-99-130-0251 SHEATH, KNIFE

Detail Webbing cotton; olive drab; web equipment; 1958 Pattern for use by SAS only

 

The Detail column has inconsistent text. They were not present in CCN 1965, they were introduced between 1965 & 1976, specifically for SAS and I've never seen photos showing otherwise. The dropped loops were because SAS favoured Bergens, their multi-day patrols requiring more to be carried. The lumbar strap of the bergen coincides with the waistbelt, so all pouches had to be below it. -0251 inverts to Sheath Knife. It's not, of course, its a sheath for a knife, specifically such as Victorinox Swiss Army, Gerber, etc Trade Pattern stuff.

 

 

Marked GQ makes it very interesting. RFD-GQ took over Mills in 1970s, their product lines being reasonably coincident. Venture capitalists thereafter screwed everything up.

 

Hope this is of interest.

 

Cheers

 

Paul

RFD also took over Beaufort Air-Sea Equipment Ltd, famous makers of 60s - 80s RAF aircrew clothing and equipment......

Mrs Madden has assured me that we ARE going over for the 70th (yes dear....:undecided:)........you can't miss her (well, you can, at only 4'10")....but not her London gob........(yes dear.....)..........(I will be the quiet, humble 6'4" bloke on a 16H)......

They are indeed what you described......PM me if interested in a sale or swap...! :-D Steve (ps - I'm in SW6 Monday - Friday...!)

Having owned and ridden most wartime WD bikes for the last 30+ years, at certain points as my only transport, I'm a tad on the fence about what's better.......at the end of the day they all have their good and bad points, and peculiarities between 'em......

No bike is really more reliable or durable than any other.....even the best restoration can go pear-shaped at the most inconvenient moment......M20's are tough and most spares easy to source, but they are a bit of a lump, and Matchless's equally good but a pain to work on, especially if the dynamo buggers up......nowadays, I've settled on a Norton 16H and Ariel W/NG for my limited pleasure usage, and both have proven arguably efficient and fun with no significant issues......comfort-wise, I like the Ariel, but for speed and fun I prefer the 16H, the latter a beautiful starter on fuel that's often over a year old........

But I also used a Royal Enfield Model C as my daily transport for years......not at all quick but very reliable and comfy......trouble was, I thrashed the thing and forgot my daily maintenance routine, resulting in the conrod shearing at 55mph, taking out most of the engine internals with it...........luckily, I had a spare unit under the bench and was back on the road within a week.......:-D