wdbikemad

Headgear always remained the RAF blue-grey items.....usually the forage cap, but from 43 onwards the beret began to appear but was by no means common until post-WW2........

 

Insignia worn on the HD blouse was generally the blue-grey patterns as worn on the same uniform.....although some NCO's did use army pattern chevrons........shoulder eagles were also not always worn by ranks below WO.......the blue-grey blouses were usually issued with eagles sewn-on but this practice was later dropped as many were issued to aircrew and officers whom wore no eagles so had to be removed......the khaki pattern were generally issued without eagles attached and many couldn't be bothered to sew 'em on anyway.....

 

Most RAF trades in WW2 were issued ankle boots along with shoes......the black boots were similar to army pattern ammo boots but often without the metalwork (due to sparks) and the RAF type boots usually had no toe-caps, similar to Naval pattern working boots still made until the 80s.........army stocks of ammo boots were also worn where RAF-specific stocks were low........anklets (webbing gaiters) were generally not worn by RAF personnel unless Regiment.........shirts were usually the blue-grey European pattern (without black tie) although some army stocks and KD varieties were often worn, particularly in Italy and the Middle East........

 

Webbing, where worn, was a mixture of RAF blue-grey 37 pattern, army 37 pattern in khaki, or RAF '25 pattern in blue-grey and khaki...........check out "Karkee Web" website for massive info on the latter.........

Ok folks,

 

a quick question, when was the last time the RAF were allowed to use Khaki Battle Dress, ( Heavy Duty Dress)? I assume wartime issue only?

 

Mark

 

It certainly continued in use with the RAF Regiment, existing stocks being used up in parallel with the Army pattern 1946,47 and 49 Battledress post-war and probably in odd instances until khaki BD was abandoned during the early 60s.......I also have a feeling that khaki serge RAF BD ("Heavy Duty Dress") was still on issue throughout the late-40s and 1950s as a cold-weather working dress for most personnel at RAF stations in the Mediterranean and Middle Eastern theatres where KD clothing was the norm for warm weather..........

 

Interestingly, the RAF pattern khaki serge BD appeared around 1942......the blouse was a dead copy of the army economy pattern BD with exposed buttons and no pocket pleats.......although the trousers were not the same, lacking the front field dressing pocket but having instead an additional rear pocket on the left-upper in a similar fashion to 49 pattern BD trousers.......additionally, blouse and trousers carry the description "Heavy Duty Dress" on the labels......

The trousers are rather hard to find.....same as the later issue but slightly different fabric........see my recent post on CS95 trial gear (with photos)......

 

I am still seeking a trial field jacket with the attached hood (cut like a 94 pattern jacket but in ripstop and with hood).....I have one of the subsequent CS95 trial jackets with attachable hood (again, see my recent post of the manufacturers sealed working pattern)...........

I hope this will of interest too some of you.

 

http://www.britishpathe.com/video/testing-army-clothing-colour/query/TESTING+ARMY+CLOTHING

 

Dave

 

Just reviewed this wonderful short film again, and the DPM smocks featured appear to be the same item as my recently-aquired 66 dated prototype DPM smock.......they have press-stud pockets, exposed frontal zip, full lining and the hood appears to be permanently attached.........right at the start of the film a female tester seems to be adjusting the externally-protruding waist drawcord of the garment, a feature found on the prototype......

Sorry to resurrrect an old thread but does anyone have a QM listing for quilted trousers in old ( 1,2,3 etc..) sizing? As per above just interested to know what the largest old money size was...

 

 

Thanks

 

"Liner, Cold Weather, Trousers - cloth, plain weave, nylon, olive drab"........

 

NSN 8415 99 137 5034 to 5038, size 1 to size 5, plus 8415 99 137 5039 size "special"...........

 

Unusually, the CG combat clothing list (August 1986) does not give any further detail in respect of size fittings.....:-( (it does for the matching jacket liner though)

 

These items were originally under "CM" for clothing for special applications, but appear to have moved to section CG, probably as a result of the matching quilted sleeved smock liner being by then also intended for wear with the (84 pattern) combat smock in addition to the arctic windproof smock as originally intended.........

Apols Jason......work and family commitments have taken over this year......plus my wife hasn't been on top form in recent days so really need to be home-ish..........still, there's always next year........:-)

Congrats Gary ! I have two of these !!! One used and one unissued....plus trousers.......my unissued jacket has the unique reference No, S 19069....and size 190/104.......all made by Remploy......contract SL4b/0662.....for an estimated 3000 CS95 trial garments....all made by Remploy Ltd.........

Sorry to resurrrect an old thread but does anyone have a QM listing for quilted trousers in old ( 1,2,3 etc..) sizing? As per above just interested to know what the largest old money size was...

 

 

Thanks

 

I will check my references Jason........:-D

My fellow collectors may be relieved to note that I'm not going this year.....:-D I hope therefore that others will secure some nice finds.....!

Another interesting point (they keep coming) is that the 60 pattern Gurkha size range was specified as having only the "G" prefix to the size number, no other reference made on the label to "Gurkha" as on later 68 pattern garments.........also, the Gurkha size range was not to show the additional US or Canadian comparative sizing on the label, probably because no equivalent size range was manufactured by those armies......

 

Documents also mention that 60 pattern gear ordered for the Air Ministry (RAF) was to have the contract number applied to the label below the sizing details (this is on early 60s garments lacking the later "A/78/etc, etc" marking)........

 

I too, have never seen any green 60 pattern Gurkha size clothing (that had its own unique NSN series) but the manufacturing specifications I have just acquired dated 61-62 confirm that the garments were produced...........:-D

Some more images of the early prototype 1966 dated DPM smock....note the provision for the waist drawcord to exit from either the inside or outside front, the pocket detail showing the wartime-style unplated Newey-brand snap fasteners plus some unfaded early DPM cloth.......plus detail of the NZ-brand zipper and label.....although hard to read I can now just make out what I think is "SCRDE" before the 66 date..........also included is a side shot showing the sleeve design identical to the 59 pattern Denison smock.......

The original cut of the 60 pattern smock, when first introduced, was overall rather restrictive, especially under the arms.....I should imagine the Gurkha size range was even tighter !!!!

 

It seems that the 50s pattern suit underwent a great deal of field testing in the period 56 to 60, resulting in the smock and trousers being lengthened and changes to the lining. However, it was testing by the Airborne Brigade that seems to have been the reason behind the cut and fit of the sleeves being altered on the 60 pattern smock during the early 60s to the pattern with oval elbow patches and no underarm vents........apparently, during testing they found difficulty raising their arms to handle parachute harness lines thus around 30 examples of the 60 pattern smock then undergoing trial were modified in the arm area for further testing......the result being that this modification was adopted for production from (officially) 1961-62 onwards, although as surviving examples show these did not appear until 63-64 at the earliest, around the same time as the lining was changed from gabardine to poplin (cheaper, though less hard-wearing and more breathable).....

 

The plan was for the Denison to be replaced by the green 60 pattern smock, hence the testing by Airborne units.........the numerous correspondence afterwards between the senior figures in the Airborne and the War Office to build a case to retain the Denison is truly interesting reading........basically, everyone agreed that the 60 pattern smock was excellent and the Denison inferior in many aspects, and the Airborne case for retention of the Denison boiled down to a simple case of tradition and distinction as opposed to the official side's view of a better field garment for everyone......most interesting is the fact that the official plan was for the Denison to be replaced by the new range of tropical combat clothing then under very early development, but as is known now this didn't reach the final development stage until at least 1973 and by that time probably bore no resemblance to the future garments envisaged during the early 60s..........hence the Denison continued in manufacture and on issue for years.......

 

Also mentioned is the supply situation with the Denison, the official side stating that there were good stocks of non-popular sizes (eg - large) at depots but the popular sizes required regular (annual) demanding from manufacturers........and that there were issues finding a supplier of the cammo fabric on an ad-hoc basis from the limited range of companies producing such at the time.......included in this report is a copy of the Denison ordnance stock situation during 1960-61......giving the number of garments in particular sizes currently stored in depots, the number "due out" and the number "due in"............real "anorak" reading....!!

Another interesting detail, is that the records note that the 60 pattern suit was made with the sateen cloth "reversed" so that the shiny side was on the inside, unlike earlier "Korean" garments.......this was because the WD had noted that the reverse side had better wearing properties............hmmmmm

I managed to get hold of a load of War Office and MoD info today relating to the 1950s and 1960 pattern combat clothing......to be used in the book !

 

The info includes copies of correspondence, trial reports, specifications, etc..............I've also got a copy of the manufacturers specifications for making the 1960 pattern combat smock and trousers dated 1961-2 ish......this covers everything from stitch length, cut, zipper sizes, buttons, fabrics, etc........it covers the 1st version 60 pattern smock with the square elbow patches and vented armpits.........also included are the full size and fitting charts......priceless info ! This goes nicely with similar info I have for the Denison smock (all patterns).......

 

What is interesting though, is the 60 pattern green gear was also manufactured in the Gurkha size ranges (sizes G1 to G9) as per the later 68 pattern gear........additionally, NSN ranges are included !

 

Some of the reports relate to the battle between the Airborne forces and the War Office regarding the replacement of the Denison with the 60 pattern green smock.............very enlightening.....

Nice catch!I had it on my watch list in the vain hope that i was the only person who spotted it!Looks like it found a good home..Strange thing with Hogspear's stuff, relatively common items seem to sell for lots of money?..

 

so, when is this book coming out then?

 

Hogspear seem to acquire much of their gear from household clearance, much of such being ex-officer stuff......and the majority seems untouched and definitely original.......I guess they attract the serious collector, and from my own experience their customer sales experience is bloody good........I guess you end up paying for a reputable seller......

 

The book text is now largely completed....that is just the basic text........I now need to add detail and specialist non-standard garments.........all of this takes time, and I need a spare week at least at the National Archives just to double-check certain details (and I have a leave-ban until the Olympics end at the expense of family and pleasure hols)....the main issue is juggling work (I am out between 5am and 7pm Monday to Friday in London, plus travel) and family.....we still have two teen girls at home who are in their own ways rather demanding (though have got shot of the two boys and other two girls who are now in their 20's/30's !!!).........plus we only got round to getting married (at last) less than two months ago........so enjoying life at present as newly-weds.....!

I spend my working day behind a screen and often the last thing I want to do when getting home is to spend more hours at a keyboard.....!!!!

 

Books take time.........my last book (British Forces Motor Cycles) took almost 3 years to write with a mate, both of us having to type everything up on a typewriter (no PC's back then) and find time to visit archives, etc.......no mean task......

 

I am hoping that the book will appear next year......but I won't compromise on putting my wife and the family commitments first.....:-D

Shame we don't have spares or a deal may be done.......:-D Am I right in saying that the trial PLCE side pocket yoke was a simple "A" frame arrangement.....? I had two spare mint examples dated 85 until very recently......and found at Sabre Sales !!!!

I saw it but didnt know what it was so passed,plus pretty much ANYTHING rare on not Hogspear sells goes for big money so didnt even keep it in my watch list.

 

Glad it went to a good home:laugh:

 

I only came across this by chance, and recognised it only by similarities to the trial fleece-lined garment I'd owned years ago (and stupidly parted with...:-()............I still think I got a bargain by setting my maximum limit after clearing such with 'er indoors.....and went for it...........after all, large size green 60 pattern smocks and 63 pattern windproofs seem to be going for far more.......I recently saw a mintish early size 5 DPM arctic windproof sell on Fleabay for £330......so on the scale of things, not a bad deal for rocking-horse.........

OK! So two types of DPM (60 and 68) introduced and circulation at essentially the same time...admittedly does sound typical of the MOD:D

 

Almost Jason...! Initial production DPM 60 pattern, say (very) late 69 to (early) 71, 68 pattern (very late) 70 to early 71 onwards until modified circa 1976-77 (fabric composition and revised NSN's)..........modified 68 pattern production ended by 1984 (with trouser lining & belt loops modified around 81-82).......

Steve - I had thought that 60 pattern DPM was around from c.1966 onwards. I have a couple of 68 pattern DPM items dated 1971, and judging by the amount ot 60 pattern DPM produced, it must have been in circualtion for a few years prior to the 68 pattern in 1970/71...

 

This area has always been a bone of contention Jason ! I am still searching for official references to DPM clothing, and the key to this would be to see a CG (combat clothing) NSN list first showing the DPM 60 pattern clothing listed under the unique NSN for the smock and trousers !!!!! I haven't seen/found anything to date.........we are looking at the period 1969 - 71 to cover all bases.....

 

But what is clear is that I have trawled through tons and tons of Army photos, including Soldier Magazine archives, and no DPM clothing appears in pictures until 1970 at the earliest........add to this official statements (from SCRDE) published in the same magazine as news items, confirming that DPM clothing was being introduced for the regular army from 1970-71 onwards, and the TA from 74-75 onwards............

 

It would seem that the first three contracts for DPM clothing (smocks and trousers) went to Cookson & Clegg and James Smith........they were sizeable contracts judging by the number of surviving garments all bearing the same contract numbers, and were for the existing (1964 modified) 1960 pattern gear........by 1971 the 68 pattern suit entered production and issue, replacing the interim 60 pattern DPM gear........but it should also be stated that the initial production of DPM 60 pattern gear that lasted for no less than an estimated 2 years (say 1969 - 71) was of such quantity to see the gear still stocked and on issue alongside the later 68 pattern clothing until at least the mid-late 1970's if photos are anything to go by........I have a photo of the Gloster's returning from a tour of NI during 1971 and many of the parade are wearing 60 pattern DPM combats, but mixed among them are early examples of 68 pattern gear....all indicative of the short production run and early replacement by the improved pattern....

 

Realistically however, it would seem highly likely that the then-current 6o pattern suit was made up in DPM fabric for trial purposes from the late-1960s onwards prior to production.........

 

It's so damn frustrating that the records of tests and trials are being so elusive.......I need a week off in the National Archives..

4-colour desert DPM was trialed in the 80s.......but at this time, no official matching rank slides (in any finish) were listed to my knowledge........

 

I wonder if these were a commercially-sourced "officer" item from this era or possibly later, using up stocks of this fabric ??? I have noted 4-colour desert DPM still available on-the-roll in my local branch of Fabric Land !!!! It could also be the case that these are not British Army but possibly ex-Middle-Eastern armies whom adopted British-style rank insignia...? I'm not 100% certain.......

Superb Steve - would love to see the close ups you mention espy label.

 

I wonder if this may have been a pre-cursor to the cold weather parka. As you say 60 pattern DPM was in wide circulation at this point and the 68 pattern is a world apart from this even though it was likely in development around this time. It is SO different from the 60 and 68 pattern it just seems to be a big jump from these two issues. The long length and integral hood point more towards a parka. Just a thought....

 

Thanks Jason....I did think "parka" due to the length and facility to shove the waist drawcords externally rather than internally, an important consideration in cold weather conditions..........plus, the similar garment I owned many years ago now that was almost identical but with a non-detachable fleecy parka lining...........

 

Yet from what I can see of the label, it is something (possibly spec or pattern numbers) followed by (possibly) "smock" and then definitely "Combat".........sizing is as per many 60-era garments with a numbered size followed by measurements......plus a 1966 date......infuriatingly, I cannot see anything else.....the label should also include the words "SCRDE", "GDS" or "APRE".......at this time never a manufacturers name because such garments were made "in-house" by the development teams........

 

But to all intents and puposes, this item is cut identically to a 59 pattern Denison, yet slightly longer in the body and full poplin-lined.....so a combat smock rather than a parka....?

 

This item also proves that DPM cammo was extant in it's initial form as early as '66, but not introduced into production combat clothing (60 pattern) until 1970.............

 

The plot thickens.....!!!!!:-D

 

I have a copy of a Soldier Magazine photo showing a similar smock being worn in the late-1960's by an APRE examiner supervising a clothing trial test...........

With credit to the images to the seller, I will add additional close-ups of details (such as the label) in due course....... I would really appreciate comments on this smock as it's going in the book !!!! Cheers, Steve (ps - also note the longer length than the Denison and the very early non-dotted DPM cammo print, brass wartime-style Newey press studs, etc)......The stated "Size 5" also suggests that this particular garment was made in a full size range, no doubt matching the 59 Denison sizes (upon which this garment was based) from a size 1 to 8...........

 

I also didn't realise until recently, but an old article in Soldier Magazine revealed that the SCRDE/APRE had their own workshops complete with around 40-odd staff that included tailors, cutters, etc, whom could manufacture in small quantities any trial garment or item of kit.....this may account for the garment being assembled using the older wartime non-plated Newey fasteners, these appearing in production garments in nickel plate from as early as '46 onwards....no doubt SCRDE/GDS (Garment Development Section) or APRE stocks were of earlier items.......

 

I might add that this wasn't cheap....(cost around £150) but on the scale of things I was prepared to go up to £250.........sole purpose was (and is) the forthcoming book, to ensure that I can write the best possible summary.........63 pattern DPM and green windproof suits are rare, but this item.........well, I think I got a bargain.......and for the greater good !!!

I will post piccies within the next few days.........

 

I have just acquired a rare trial DPM combat smock / jacket that is dated 1966.....it is British, not foreign.......

 

The garment is in well-used condition although complete.....it is one of the trial garments made in limited numbers by SCRDE and tested by APRE during the mid-1960's as part of the plan to introduce DPM cammo throughout the British Army......

 

The garment is basically cut exactly the same as a 1959 pattern full-zip Denison smock.......BUT, not fitted with a crutch-flap, lower-side adjustment tabs or flannel-lined collar............and this is NOT a trial DPM para smock either as although cut as per the Denison it lacks most of the "para" features apart from the woolen cuffs.......the trial DPM para smocks were not introduced until nearly 10 years later with the initial design entering service during 1977......

 

However, the garment is fully-lined in green poplin (as per the later 68 pattern smock) with no internal pockets, has heavy wool knitted cuffs, is cut longer in the body than the Denison, and all pockets are flat-sewn and non-expanding and lined in poplin (there are no sleeve or pen pockets either).......all pocket flaps are press-stud fastened, plus the epaulettes..........the garment also has a permanently-attached DPM hood cut similar to a 52 pattern hood (lined) that has a drawcord and a stud-fastening at the front.........and when not in use the hood is rolled up and secured behind the collar by a DPM cloth strap secured by a press-stud........

 

The front-zipper is a typical "NZ" item in blackened brass on a green cloth tape....it is damaged but still works and has a DPM cloth puller attached to the zip-tag.......all press-studs are plain brass "Newey" doughnut fasteners as found on wartime Denisons..........

 

Fabric is heavy cotton-sateen and printed in a very early light-shade DPM (without "dots" to the pattern !!!) and looks to be almost "hand-printed" or early screen-printed suggesting trial........

 

Interestingly, the waist has a 60 pattern thick drawcord, the ends of which can be inserted from either the inside-front or through sewn slots on the outside front........

 

Frustratingly, the white-cloth label is largely unreadable, BUT, you can make out the size (5) plus the measurements, the word "combat" and the clear date "1966"....there appears to be no NSN or similar..........there are also traces of the original wearers name and number....

 

This IS a genuine ex-British item and most definitely trial...........I have had another in the past, almost the same but heavy fleece lined in a fabric similar to the British Korean middle parka...........

 

Photos will follow..........

 

It looks a bloody good garment, well designed and not dissimilar to the DPM para smock introduced 10 years later.....I just wonder why the army went for the 60 pattern smock in DPM and then followed by the 68 pattern........the 60 pattern not appearing until at least 1970............???:undecided:

It is not surprising that there are more than one variant of the 85 pattern trial PLCE webbing, though I must admit I hadn't seen the smaller-flapped version of the ammo pouches before........

 

I have however, seen two different versions of the trial PLCE shovel carrier.......different fittings on the rear basically.....

 

The purpose of the trial sets was to test the suitability of the design.......no doubt slightly differing versions of individual items were made as part of the trial......

 

I still need a trial yoke to get my set together......I have the pouches, shovel cover, belt(s) and bergen with side pouches......but to date the yoke eludes me........

AFAIK Mainly Royal Marine Issue during the 60s and 70s..and still around in the..

 

I have the same that was issued to my old man in late 82 when he was in the Falklands..I think they were taken down from store to the south atlantic. Some pics of the conflict show them too - particularly being used by Journalists

 

Based on the Cresta Rucksack from the 50s..

http://www.smhc.co.uk/objects_item.asp?item_id=31872

 

A great many commercial and other-armies rucksacks were adopted for use during the Falklands campaign......

 

The only "Cresta" I remember from the 70s era was the fizzy bottled drink with the polar bear...."it's frothy man"..:-D