wdbikemad

My opinion differs in that if I could repair it safely I would try ..the frame has surface corrosion and I would suggest getting rid of this to asses if the frames repairable or to heavily corroded ..You can get Rust removing Dips and Gels and I would Soak the frame in a dip and see what you are left with ...

 

At that point you can make an assesment of its strenght ..There are a number of specialist companies that can do frame rebuilds and straigthens and I would suggest getting the frame in for professional work....

 

 

Jenkinov

 

I agree wholeheartedly that it's always worth considering saving original parts, but in my own case I am always governed by a budget.........a friend of mine spent well over £350 on getting a Matchless frame re-tubed, only to find that he could have bought a decent used example for half of that........his frame was away for nearly 10 months (a long story) and he'd seen these other frames at autojumbles during that period but didn't buy them.....afterwards he wished he had ! :-(

The grey elasticated braces were introduced during 1951, announced in List of Changes (LoC's) C.4515 of 30th March 1951......

 

However, LoCs were only published once a garment or item of kit had been tested and approved for service, so the braces may have appeared initially a year or so earlier...? The same LoC also notes that stocks of the old wartime pattern non-elasticated white cotton-tape braces had to be used up first before issuing the new type.......:-D

Rather oddly Jason, I have 2 x Mint Size 1 parkas, and then a couple of Mint size 9's, all of the later pattern.....the recently acquired early example is a 4, but is basically a size 1 although a tad longer in the body and arms......it's the sizes between 1 and 9 that seem incredibly hard to track down now, particularly NOS examples.......and my recently-acquired early example is around the 4th new example I've seen of that type in the last couple of years, all small sizes........whilst the size 1 is small, the 9 is absolutely huge (even on me)...

 

My uncle gave me a reasonable Size 7 a while ago now, late 60s manufacture by James Smith and with the black-on-green label........he wore it on his scooter in the 60s after buying it in a surplus shop in Southampton and despite this it's in nice condition......it fits me too ! :-D

I think I came to the same conclusion....very minor differences, but essentially the same case.....? Next time I'm over at the farm I will dig out a few of these and compare.....

 

I wonder if the War Office "List of Changes" (LoC's) or the "Karkee Web" site may assist...?

As many will know, the "light" respirator was introduced during 1943 to replace the long-hosed earlier type.......

 

The light respirator came with a green-coloured smaller canvas duck case/haversack............most I've seen, even those dated 1943, are marked "II" (for Mark 2).........but I have a case at the farm marked "I" (Mark 1 ???) dated 1943.........but on examination, there appears to be no real difference with the "MK2"......

 

Thoughts anybody......??

Avoid like the plague! Woefully bad. They pinch photos of original kit from all over the net and put them on their site as examples of items they've made. The few examples of their products I've had the misfortune to be shown look like they've been made from recycled dog blankets and baked bean tins.......

 

cheers

 

Paul

 

They may well have been.....!! :-D

 

A great many WD motorcycle parts are also being copied in India......again, the quality varies but is mostly poor judging by the feedback, with items not fitting, being woefully inaccurate, etc...that is if they arrive at all.....and if safety-critical items, such as girder forks....don't even go there !!!! The thought of my life in the balance at speed down to a part of unknown quality just isn't worth the worry.....

Now ended, but did anyone view that RAF olive-drab extreme cold-weather parka on Ebay that ended yesterday ? Korean-era.....No labels, but a good size with a belt and near-new......I was going to bid, but missed it due to luncheon arrangements taking precedence......:undecided:........but glad I did, as it went for around £107......!!!

 

Still nice tho........:-)

You might be lucky as Im sure of the very minute % of people that are happy with the stuff are happy with the JG stuff they make but its still a gamble as to if you receive anything at all as a lot of people never get any of the items they order so guess it depends on how desperate you are for the items.[/quote

 

I've never ordered....so can't accurately comment.........but some seem to have had bad experiences, and others good........the difficulties with ordering from overseas is always a combination of postage, communications, assurances, guarantees and redress when things go wrong.......payment via either a credit card or Paypal may offer some recompense if things go pear-shaped......

 

The primary problem is that original kit, in modern sizes, is now hard and expensive to source.....and few, if any, UK outlets, due to cost and overheads, seem interested in meeting apparent demand........

 

I have heard good reports about "WPG" (What Price Glory) in the USA, although it would seem that they ship via the UAE to avoid excessive postage from the USA....and then, the kit available is not always exactly what you are looking for......

 

I gave up on trying to find a wartime 37 pattern BD in my (large) size at a reasonable price, and the copies on offer were dubious to say the least......so, after much deliberation, Mrs M assisted in making me a complete BD outfit using about 7 metres of original British khaki serge and drill, using an original as a pattern..........and I must say, it looks, and fits, damn well and passed the test at Goodwood this year..........I am fortunate to have my better (though considerably smaller) talented other-half.........

 

By the way, what pattern and size were you looking for in British JG Mark....? I just MIGHT have some spare late-60s aertex shirts around a 16" collar for starters......no promises though.....and I would suggest approaching "Silverman's" in London for a pair of their "P-Coy" trousers in green drill.........they did have them up to a 36-38 waist (ex-Survival Aids stock) with a long leg and they are a faithful copy of the '53 pattern.....BUT, the green colour is too dark, so a soak in a mild bleach bath should produce the desired shade..........and they were/are a reasonable £29-odd a pair (new).......see my earlier post on the Forum with a shot of these ("Survival Aids OG Jungle Trousers")......

 

PM me with what you are seeking, together with your measurements, and when I am next able to get over to the farm (where my hoard is stashed) I will see if I can assist.........

cheers mate, seen them on ebay, however I am on a self imposed ebay ban at moment....(just bought a ROC BD Blouse!!!)

 

 

Mark

 

I am approaching a similar scenario........Mrs M has noticed my recent purchases and the various parcels arriving at the door, and has today given me that "hard stare"....(similar to the "1000 yard stare" and just as menacing....)...:-(

very nice, need a trial yoke myself

 

Mark

 

Mark, I am in no way greedy.....I only need the one.....if I come across one I will secure it on your behalf.....I'll ensure it's reasonable in all areas.....

Some recent Fleabay purchases I thought I'd share.........apologies for the poor quality images..... I must get a new phone....(the missus nicked my Galaxy with the 8 mp camera !!).......first is a rare 1st pattern 1951 dated Korean War British Middle parka in absolutely MINT condition.......this is the original 1st issue made from lightweight olive-drab windproof gabardine, with an attached (not separate) hood and no top pockets..........there may be other differences, such as the cuff straps and other details but I haven't got a later version here to compare at present.........the label is marked "RSM" and scored out but the garment displays absolutely no wear whatsoever.....no doubt he got some minnion to go outside in the cold while this hung on the door !!!!:cool2: I have several examples of the later 1953 pattern in sateen with the separate hood, but only one ragged example of this rather rare pattern until acquiring this.........and I got it for a very reasonable price of just over £50 squid........

 

The other item is a trial 85 pattern PLCE yoke that I have been seeking for a while now..........and am now only looking for the waterbottle and utility pouches to complete my set.......:-D This yoke cost, including post, a very reasonable £20-odd quid........

Sure looking forward to this book.

 

So am I....!!!!!

 

It's going well, but there's so much to put-down in words......and sorting the wheat from the chaff (read - sifting through mind-numbing War Office correspondence and reports) is a thankless task..........there's a ton of repetition, and contrary reports, dates, etc, it's a wonder that they managed to get anything designed and into production........

 

And the correspondence between the "official side" and the Airborne senior officers to retain the Denison is a tad hostile to say the least...! This particular battle started around 1958 and ran on until the early 70s..........!! All will be revealed in my publication in due course.......:-D

I think new kit was announced in LoC's only after it had been tested and approved for service........

 

Initial stocks of gabardine smocks, trousers, hoods, caps and middle parkas were certainly being issued by November 1951....this was even announced in Parliament that month in response to questions raised about Commonwealth troops suffering a second winter without suitable kit from the UK.......

 

One of the first changes to combat clothing following initial issue for the second Korean winter of 51-52 was the decision to change the garments fabric to sateen, the War Office announcing that the gabardine fabric had been found to be less durable than expected.......I estimate sateen kit to have entered production by mid-52, and this fabric lasted until the mid-70s when replaced by the mixed cotton-synthetic fabric (in either a 50/50 mix or 70/30)........:-)

 

Interestingly, the combat cap remained in double-thickness waterproof gabardine until replaced by the DPM crap hat from 72 onwards.......

 

Regarding sateen, pre-61/62 garments, when new, have a noticeable "sheen" to the fabric.......this was later reduced because the War Office had discovered that the inner-surface of the sateen cloth was more durable (and duller) than the outer, therefore garments made post 61/62 onwards are far less "shiny" due to the fabric being made-up into garments with the reverse side outwards....!

At last.....thanks to a good friend I have discovered the official introductory date for the green 1950s combat clothing.......

 

War Department List of Changes (LoCs) C4914 of 31st March 1952 announces the introduction of the combat smock and trousers, made from waterproof olive-drab gabardine........

 

It should be borne in mind however, that it would take time for stocks to be accumulated and issued.....and at the time the priority was distribution in Korea.......I suspect that the garments were already under manufacture at least a year earlier and on issue to elements of the Commonwealth Division judging from official sources.......the LoC announcement was probably made once stocks had begun to accumulate.........after all, I have a few 1951-dated hoods and parkas to confirm this !

 

By mid-52, it should also be noted that the smock and trousers, plus the hood and parka, had changed over to sateen fabric for all subsequent production..........:-D

 

From what I can gather in my research for the book, the initial issue of combat clothing in gabardine was very much to test out the suitability of the combat ensemble.......thus, anything dated 51-52 in gabardine may be considered rare, particularly as the bulk of production was earmarked for Korea...........

To assist fellow enthusiasts, the old War Department / MoD specifications list the following Zip sizes for the 1950s and 1960 pattern combat clothing.......this may assist if you need to seek a replacement !

 

Trousers - Sizes G1, G2, G3 = 8"

G4, G5, G6, 1, 2 and 3 = 9"

G7, G8, G9, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8 and 9 = 10"

 

Zips are described as "Fastener, Slide, Green, 2-Way Puller, one end Auto-Locking, 5/8ths tape".....

 

Remember, some early 50s and late 60 pattern did not have the two-way zip........

 

Smock - Sizes G1, G2, G3 = 16"

G4, G5, G6, 1, 2 and 3 = 18"

G7, G8, G9, 4, 5 and 6 = 20"

7, 8 and 9 = 22"

 

Described as "Fasteners, Slide, Green, Heavy, Open-end, Auto-Locking".......

 

Early zips are often made by "Swift", "Flash", "Lightning", "Aero" or "DOT"........later zips can be the same but with the addition of "NZ" (Newey Zips), "Clix", etc...........the vast majority are blackened-brass on a emerald-green base tape (always cotton, never nylon) although variations can be found.......

no probs, bet you havnt got any jg in my size tho, size 9 or 190/120 (fat git size lol!!!)

 

Mark

 

Sadly, no !! Silverman's in London did have a decent copy however, of the OG trousers that according to the labelling were ex-"Survival Aids" stock and they had 'em in a 34 - 38" waist x long leg.......they call them "P-Coy" trousers for some obscure reason........they were, on examination, a perfect copy although the green colour was a tad too dark (soon fades though) and at a reasonable (for them) £29.99......they also appear to do the KD version too, 'though lacking the large left leg pocket.........

 

See an earlier post of mine showing the ex "Survival Aids" green trousers......

Apols, but haven't got any Mark.......though I do have a smattering of British OG clothing from the 50s to the 70s.....:-D

thanks for that.......next question..........where the trops bloused into the american boots? or left over them?

 

Mark

 

Usually "bloused" over them using elasticated trousers "twists"......rarely, if ever, worn loose over the top or secured using the drawcord in the lower legs !!! Typically, in true British Army style, fashion prevailed everywhere.......

Poor light maybe, but a rather nice find ! This is an example of the first British-issue JG uniform of WW2, that replaced/superceded the green-dyed KD and Indian-made (JG) clothing.......it appeared by late 1943 but it seems that few troops actually received the garments (with matching trousers that feature two rear pockets and a double strap and buckle frontal fastening) until late 1944/early 45..............the gas flap was similar to that found on US tropical clothing and fitted due to fears that the Japanese would employ gas as a last desperate defence method as the war drew to a close.......many troops however, chose to cut this away along with the sleeves....!

 

Evidence suggests that this suit was also made up in camouflage cotton gabardine, using the same fabric as employed in "SAS" windproof smocks........these are, obviously, very rare today......for more info (and photos) of these garments see the excellent book "Khaki Drill and Jungle Green" by Crowood Press, written by Brayley and Ingram.........

 

This kit was officially replaced by the 1952 pattern jungle green bush jacket (in aertex fabric) and drill trousers (the ones with the strap and buckle fastening on each hip) that lasted (in the case of the trousers at least) until replaced by DPM around '75-76.........the jacket went out of favour by the mid-late 60's when replaced by the aertex shirt.........

 

However, stocks of the older wartime JG continued to be issued as long as stocks were available, in some instances up to the early 60s......it is also worth noting that Indian-made, Gurkha pattern clothing and locally-tailored/puchased garments were equally popular amongst troops, particularly officers, and continued to be worn, where permissible, until JG disappeared from the British Army during the 1970's........

 

The garment shown appears to have been manufactured by Hobson and Sons, London.......more famous as headgear manufacturers than for clothing..........they were still in London right up to the end of the 80s, located where the "London Dungeon" is now situated, not far from London Bridge.......! These are rather rare garments...........and a nice find....

Not the world's greatest images, but this is the post-war cammo cotton-gabardine windproof fabric sample I have, that the parka was made from.........note the plain brown-colour fabric reverse side............and the "splodge" pattern rather than "brushstrokes"...........only ever seen similar ('though not identical) on wartime SOE jumpsuits (these being made in a heavy cotton-duck, not gabardine)........

Years ago now, I acquired a 1950's era British parka.........it was an experimental garment, and of "pullover" design with hood and 3/4 length...........it was made from windproof cotton-gabardine and of double-thickness, cammo on the outside and white on the inner, hence reversible.........it was noticeably lighter than the standard "middle parka" of the time......

 

Like a complete buffoon, I let it go.......but, somewhere, I do have a photo or two of the garment..........

 

The strange thing was, the cammo print was in the usual green and brown, BUT, in a different pattern more akin to "splodges" rather than "paintbrush strokes" as seen on the windproofs, Denison, etc........and the shade was rather dark......experimental ? I think so...........I have recently found a large piece of windproof fabric in cotton-gabardine, and printed in the same cammo pattern and colour..........once I get the camera up and running I will post a photo........

 

I have only ever seen such a similar cammo print on the wartime SOE canvas jump-suit.....and this pattern looks to be a derivative albeit in a different fabric.........

 

I have seen the odd "rumour" about Korean-era British "cammo" parkas and always thought they were a possible confusion with troops wearing an oversized hooded windproof.......perhaps not....? :undecided:

There is indeed a goretex DPM sniper suit, but I can't remember exactly what it looks like. These date from (probably) the early 90s.

 

It seems that a 1-piece DPM sniper suit existed as far back as the mid-1970s when a trial version was illustrated (along with the then-new DPM para smock) by SCRDE in the Osprey Men-At-Arms book "The British Army 1965 - 1980" (I think).......seems to be a coverall, with hood and foliage loops but in cloth, not nylon or goretex. Not certain if this ended up as an issue garment or remained as a trial item only......? It is not listed in the 86 edition of the QM CG combat clothing catalogue, although the sniper smock (with two separate NSN stock numbers lists !!!?) and the sew-on knee pads (see below) are.....

 

The sniper smock seems to have appeared soon after the para smock commenced issue during the late 70s, and was worn with standard DPM 68 pattern strides with sewn-on padded DPM knee-pads (available as separate items to sew-on). The sniper smock has undergone one major revision during this time, in that the lining changed to DPM (from green poplin) and the frontal zip changed from brass to plastic...........the sizing system also changed from the older "1 to 9" to the metric system........I think these changes (to the design) were around the early 90s......?

The question still remains........"why...?".......the garment itself was obsolete as a field garment by '95 and most definitely is nowadays with body armour, web kit, etc.........

 

Seems odd that the MoD would fork-out public money to manufacture an obsolete garment in MTP that would arguably only see action nowadays in the barrack area......:undecided:

Replaced by the US pattern during the early 1970s........again, some old stocks of the green were used up first........

 

By the 1990s, the UK were producing our own version of the US pattern..........

Tropical DPM was under development during the early 1970s and was on trial by at least 73-74, with issues commencing around 75.........there was, as usual, a period of overlap between DPM and green............:-D