wdbikemad

Very true......these items first appeared during the late 70s......the sizing will be 1 to 3 and anything used in the Falklands will still retain the old sizing system....the modern metric sizing didn't start to appear on most MoD clothing until 83-84 at the earliest.....

 

Sadly, even NOS garments of (now) 30-odd years old will often start to show the effects of age deterioration on components made of, or bonded by rubber.........a natural substance it will invariably deteriorate over time........often, this is very much dependent on storage........you can still find gas masks, etc, from WW2 still in damn fine condition....but others far less so.......

 

Frustratingly, I have a NOS green MK3 RN nylon hooded smock (quire a rare item) in the collection........it looks beautiful on the outside but the rubberised waterproof coating on the hood interior is literally flaking off.......

Best I get back down to Sabre Sales......they recently had a fair few NOS reversible smocks and trousers.....and at a mega cheap price....

 

Add "Falklands" to the description and you seem to enhance your chances of a profit...........rather strange, as there was not a lot of special stuff introduced for the conflict....most of what was issued had been kicking around for at least 10 years previously.......(and after......if my own issue kit up to 85 was anything to go by.....:undecided:)......

It's an interesting point.....

 

For me, as a collector, I don't give a stuff over size as long as the item I'm acquiring fills a gap or has a place in the collection..........however, some collectors do want stuff in "human" sizes for display on live bodies and/or mannequins, hence a need to fit.....

 

Nowadays, we also have the growing living history/re-enactment movement covering all periods including modern, so again, a need to obtain things to fit.........and, as mentioned, we're mostly all a tad larger today......

 

But for the above reasons, if you ever decide to sell-on your larger size acquisitions, then the price achieved will invariably be higher....in many cases considerably so (eg - Size 8 & 9 60 pattern gear)......thus an arguably sound investment....

 

I guess others though, seek large sizes simply to wear or pose in a particular garment (each to their own...).......I still occasionally throw-on an old combat smock for certain activities, but by and large prefer to avoid anything green or cammo in the wardrobe today....besides, Mrs M doesn't particularly like it....! :-\

As is probably obvious, the RAF had their own versions of tropical and hot-weather kit..........but it seems that there was much inter-issue of such kit between RAF and Army...............

 

The post-war KD stuff never seems (at the moment at least) to attract the attention (and value) of the similar OG kit......

 

I have some really nice cross-over belt KD shorts if anyone is interested........???!! ....and some green too.......plus a mega-small (size 13 collar) 60s issue MINT OG cellular shirt in OG..........all up for grabs.......

Some Brit WW2 issue jungle kit in OG was made in drill and aertex......UK and Indian-made......there are several patterns and garments.......

 

By 1951, the British introduced the 1950 pattern aertex bush jacket......awful item all considered.....tightly tailored and with an attached belt that was usually cut-off........could be worn as a shirt (tucked in) or as a jacket with the lower pockets and tails exposed.......

 

By the 60s, a proper tropical aertex shirt was on issue........still rather tightly tailored, but a darn sight better than the 1950 pattern jacket........the shirt has pleated breast pockets with 3-pointed flaps, epaulettes, and long sleeves (and tails)......on issue right up to the mid-70s when replaced by DPM tropicals.......worn with the green denim/drill cross-over belt OG trousers.........the OG cellular shirt was a popular alternative to the hairy KD or OD flannel combat shirt in European climates right up to the early 80s if you could get away with wearing one.........

 

All OG kit is nowadays hard to source, especially in larger sizes...........as ever, I have a small stash of human sizes tucked away for a rainy day......

 

As a footnote, Gurkhas, and officers, had their own patterns of OG jungle kit....some official and some privately or locally procured....all a study in its own right.....

The undated label plus the presence of a NSN suggests that these are of late manufacture (post 69 probably) and just before the DPM version in cotton-sateen appeared around 1971.....

 

It's interesting that the MoD used the same NSN series for the green and DPM 63 pattern windproofs.........they certainly didn't do so with the green and DPM 60 pattern smocks and trousers......

Here are some images of the recently discussed British OG trousers supplied by Survival Aids a few years ago now......these are now sold by Silvermans for £29.99 and are advertised as "P Coy" trousers.....I think they must have taken over the remaining stock...? They look to be 100% correct to the original issue and may well have been made by the original manufacturers...?? Only down-side is the olive colour is a tad too dark but a few washes soon sorts that one out........and when I acquired these, they were available up to a 38" waist with long legs.....:-\

At long last, some piccies of my mint NOS 63 pattern green windproof trousers.....:-D

My other two £5 each acquisitions......mint Size 2 early 68 smock by H Lotery and early size 8 aircrew MK2 jacket......:-D Incidentally, the 68 smock has the worlds longest-ever drawcords fitted.......must have been using up the end of the roll at the factory.........!!

Three more images of the early Fryer para smock showing the unusual variant press fasteners......

 

This is the rather nice early size 1 para smock by F Fryer that I acquired yesterday....the version with the variant press fasteners....

Dammit Jason !! Whenever I think I've finished a section in the book, along you come with an oddity !!!!!:-D Seems that the middle parkas followed the trousers in the number of variants........

The MoD Pans first appeared during the early 90s, taking over from the Norton Interpol rotary.......

 

They were equipped differently according to the particular user...........MoD Police examples, were white with orange stripes edged with narrow reflective blue.........calibrated speedos were frequently fitted to these, and should carry a calibration cert on the dial face marked "IRS Nottingham"...........these Pans were used at the AWE sites in Berkshire for convoy escort, Naval Dockyards in Hampshire, Devon and Scotland, plus use in central London..........the MoD Police examples are truer to standard police spec due to the Force being a Constabulary under the MoD Police Act 1987......the MoD Police bikes were generally marked-up by the vehicle branch at their HQ in Essex.......

 

Radio kit varied, with most of the Force using the MoD Cougar system as personal PRs for much of the 1990s, so bike base units may have been of compatible type.......

 

Pans supplied to other branches of the MoD, such as RLC, RAF & RMP, etc, were not as fully "plod-equipped".........apart from the RAF examples, the Army jobs usually had the pale green/yellow stripes on the sides rather than orange/blue.....calibrated speedos were not usually fitted........the RAFP and RMP have a rather limited policing role in the UK and on public roads hence little purpose in being all dressed up with nowhere to go....although the situation was different in Germany......

 

By the early 2000s, some MoD Police Pans were now in blue/yellow battenburg......the other MoD examples generally remained in the earlier markings until around 4 years ago now when battenburg began to appear on some RMP Pans....

 

The above from my own encounters during nearly 27 years as a civvy plod.......

Went to the Overlord show at Denmead today......rather quiet all told, but a few bargains...:-)

 

Best find was a very early DPM para smock.....made in cotton-sateen in used condition, a little faded but no damage.....cammo print is non-dotted DPM but with quite a light green shade......cuffs and zip are very good........

 

The label is a tad difficult to read but you can still make out most details.......a Size 1, NSN and "A78" etc contract marked and a rarer maker of "F Fryer & Co Ltd".........the zip is a typical 70s "NZ" type but on a light olive green tape rather than the bottle-green found on many examples.....

 

What sets this smock out though, is that it is fitted with the rare variant press fasteners of the "ring & doughnut" type usually seen on flying helmets, nylon webbing, etc.......these are original to the smock and in a blackened bronze.......and it is definitely an issue garment rather than a copy......plus no FFD pocket........buttons are the early type found on 60 and 68 pattern clothing.........at £15 a real deal.... I will post pics as soon as possible.....

 

Also got a new early 68 pattern smock in a size 2 made by H Lotery & Co.....I have lots, but it was only a fiver.....

 

Same price for a 71 dated size 8 MK2 DPM aircrew jacket......early DPM, in fine condition and with all the fittings.......

On the subject of MK1 58 Patt ive always gone by Howletts book(not that keen on the Europa series of webbing books to be honest).

 

Regarding the ammo pouches ive always been led to believe that there were only 2 types,early that were smaller,straight belt hooks,reinforced larger top pouch sides and the strap and buckle arrangement inside the pouch,later pouch,larger,angled belt hooks etc etc.

 

Well,just got a couple of oddities-British issue(not foreign)CN numbers,dated 1965 by ME Co and exact as the early pattern other than the top flap sides arent reinforced and same size as the later pouches so seems that there were at least 3 types and not 2 as always believed.

 

There were two versions of the early pouches.....original issue with metal side reinforcement on the lids and the later issue without (and slightly reduced sides).......I haven't checked mine out as they are in storage, but there may exist a slight increase in overall size on the 2nd version of the early pouches.......Sabre Sales did have a fair few used early pattern pouches in stock (both versions) only last year, and they may still have them mixed in with all the other used 58.....

 

It seems that the original 58 pattern gear entered production during 1959 (the earliest pouch I have seen with this date) and it seems that the metal-reinforced lids lasted up to 62-63 followed by the non-reinforced version.........not sure when the pouches were redesigned with the angled rear attachment and deletion of the inner strap, but I would guess late 60s........?

 

There is also a very late version of the right-hand pouch that lacks the Energa (or KFS) pocket on the side......some NOS examples still retain the manufacturers assembly marks for the pocket but it seems that it simply wasn't fitted, rather than later removed........I think these date from around 84 onwards and lasted up to the end of production in 1990......

 

58 webbing did not see a mass-introduction in the early 60s, although many infantry and assault troops did receive priority over the initial issue.........some TA and second line formations were still using 37 pattern gear right up to the late 60s in some instances......

 

Interestingly, I have most of the rare issue trial 58 webbing in nylon (missing only the poncho roll, waterbottle pouch and large pack - though I'm not certain if the latter was actually produced in nylon ?)......all items are NSN marked and dated 1977.......the ammo & kidney pouches and yoke conform to the later 58 pattern in specification.......Silverman's stock this trial stuff at a very reasonable £15 per item....some is used and the odd item NOS (yokes for example).........all items carry various British Army unit marks.....rare items in the extreme..........they have ammo pouches, belts, kidney pouches and yokes.....no ponch rolls or waterbottle carriers, sadly......

Thanks for the info,so its an early jumper and not many around?

 

Yes, never a common item and as with many of your items, a fine example..........I'm not even certain if these are still issued but you never know.......

RAF aircrew cold weather issue....worn along with the MK3 cold weather jacket and trousers.........prior to 1969 made in blue-grey......

 

Some of these were occasionally issued to guys in my unit when stocks of the "patched" variety were running low.......they weren't popular, as nowhere to slip your rank insignia onto.......

 

Oddly enough, this pattern resembles the original heavy wool jersey introduced during WW2, although that had a drawcord neck, brown wool and a looser knit.......

 

The aircrew example shown is of the original pattern, pre-dating the mods introduced to all woolly pullys during the mid-70s.......it is of looser knit, with "doubled" knitted cuffs........issues from the mid-70s onwards were of a tighter, more shrink-resistance knit with longer non-doubled cuffs that could be turned back...........these changes also affected the patched pattern standard issue pullover.......

Had a great wedding......usual chaos, stress, expense, etc.........and a couple of days later back to "normal"......

 

Hmmm....in this house usual chaos, stress, expense, etc..........:-(

 

So no change really......other than a lower bank balance than normal.......:-(:-(

Noticed this vibrant Forum has been a tad quiet in my absence........is it the resurgence of summer weather...???!!!

 

Apologies from my corner, only I got married (at last) this weekend.......thus was a tad pre-occupied with the new Mrs wdbikemad........:red:

According to "official" sources, a MiD oakleaf is worn on plain material matching the garment on which worn IF there is no campaign medal awarded or relevant upon which the MiD can be worn........I assume that the blue-coloured ribbon may be a close match to the blue-grey uniform upon which worn......

That's reminded me of some of the useless items issued along with your kit that you NEVER wore after basic.........

 

This included the "flasher" mac......and that ridiculous RAF replacement for the old battledress blouse......the zip-fronted No.2 dress blue-grey barathea jacket.......No one EVER wore the thing....EVER......(well, not in my unit at least....)...the woolly pully being worn everywhere...........

 

Most trades got 2 pairs of DMS shoes and 1 pair of DMS boots, unless you were RAF Police or Regiment when you got 2 pairs of boots and one shoes........

,

No DPM kit was issued during during basic, apart from a loan issue for "MFT" (military field training).......in week 5-6 we were led into a hangar stacked to the roof with 68 pattern DPM for a few days for MFT, but had to be returned thereafter......

 

When I got to trade training school (Newton) we were issued with additional role-specific kit.......for RAF plod it was a set of blue nylon RAF MK2A waterproofs, a white-top cap, "mars bar" epaulette flashes, corporal stripes, two armbands (one for No.1 dress and a printed type for working dress)....plus "combat kit"..........the latter comprised two sets of DPM 68 pattern, one 68 smock liner, a green woolly pully, 2 pairs of green long johns, 2 pairs of green wool/nylon knitted gloves, a woollen balaclava, a scrim face-veil (although for some reason all my section were given mesh "snipers hoods"..???!!), a pair of puttees, a green nylon poncho, 3 x KF combat shirts and a DPM combat cap........all supposedly sufficient to keep you warm and dry in BAOR in winter................

 

When we got to our station, additional items were issued, including NBC suit (MK1 or 2 - no MK3....), a tin hat (MK5) plus net, an S6 respirator and bag, a set of green nylon RAF foul weather waterproofs, a DPM parka plus a set of 58 webbing (belt, pouches and yoke....plus a pistol holster)..............in time, other kit appeared, including DPM arctic windproofs and Canadian arctic parkas.........

 

This was the early 80s.......

Something like this

 

Oh the horror !!!!! It was captured in photography.......:embarrassed: !!!!!

 

Mind you.......my kit lay-out featured no females (they were at somewhere called Hereford ???!!)....

 

It also never featured the kit laid out on the bedding........well, not for long in my case anyway......my kit "lay-out" could usually be inspected on the grass outside the block, from where it had descended from a window on the first floor on an almost daily basis......:cry:

 

The inclusion of the Padre in the shots is most enlightening........with no disrespect intended, a toothless tiger......."well my son, you did volunteer.......?"........hmmmmmm.....(but I'm glad I did......saw things and experienced things that have never left me since....!....apart from that unfortunate dose of the....)

 

I will forever be grateful, Corporal Jenner........:-\

I recall, with horror, the ridiculous dress combo worn by us sprogs entering RAF Swinderby during the early 80s.......it was worn for the first 3-4 weeks........(thank God)

 

Dress was: - light-blue shirt, towelling cravat (bought at your own expense !!!....and you HAD to have one in your Flight's colours), crew-neck woolly pully, DMS ankle boots, black woollen socks and a pair of RAF blue-grey coveralls with the dark-blue collar.......headgear was a blue-grey beret with a horrendous large coloured plastic disc behind the RAF badge in Flight colours to match your (purchased) cravat.........

 

You had to wear the above ensemble with the overalls over everything....BUT, with the legs tucked-in to the socks !!! (you looked like Max Wall).... Over this, you wore a boot-polished 37 pattern webbing belt AND a similar 37 pattern small pack to cart around your various books, papers, etc......

 

In wet or cold weather you were issued with a RAF blue-grey single-breasted flashers mac to wear over the top............always far too large and dangerous in a high wind or near schools.......

 

The whole lot was f%$£*&n awful....a real embarrassment......:red:

 

Apparently, the reason for the above was between weeks 1 - 4 your RAF blue No.2 dress strides were being "tailored" to fit.......oddly, in week four I went in a long line to stores to be given two pairs straight off the shelf......:undecided: (and they needed tailoring !!!!).......

 

After this, you "graduated" to trousers, tie and a peaked cap, though the latter was fitted with some sort of illuminous band over the black issue one...........and the dreaded coveralls went back into stores........

 

I recall some laughing SAC stores W£$%*&r plonking a cap on my head that was a size 62 (despite my protestations).......(I'm only a 56)........first parade wearing the thing I got a bollocking for having too big a hat, then had to go to stores to get the right one, and got billed for it because the old one was "worn"..........:embarrassed:....the cost was almost my entire week's pay at the time (paid in cash at a pay parade).....and the same grinning SAC processed the paperwork.............vengeance was, however, mine a few years later when he got posted to my station still a SAC when I was on the gate with a white hat & corporals stripes and he had no 1250 on him......Gotcha !!!!

 

Such memories.......

Just found an old list.......these suits (jackets and trousers) appear to have been made in 3 sizes only (1, 2 & 3, or Small, Medium & Large......followed by Metric Sizing on later issues)..........

The old green drill "jungle" trousers have never been easy to find in recent years - my few NOS pairs are all small in size and took a while to find.......they remained in production until at least 1975 when DPM took over....

 

Interestingly, good old "Survival Aids" used to sell their own version of these. The trousers appear to be identical to the issue ones in detail but bore a survival aids label......seems they may have been made by the MoD contractor of the time.....the only difference was the colour, which was a darker "olive" shade of green rather than the classic "jungle green".......I have a pair of these that were acquired within the last 4 years from Silvermans in a 38" waist too !! Seems Silvermans bought the remaining stock from the company........they were £29.99 a pair, and advertised as "P-Coy Trousers".....I think they are still available on-line ?

 

There is a KD version of the jungle trousers....usually lacking the large left leg map pocket.......these are also available from the above and may be genuine issue ?