wdbikemad

Bear with me Steve and I will try to dig out the 52 Patt parka and see if it has the features you mention.

 

I was give the 'serious talking to' by wifey recently so most of my collection has been hidden away and I confess I can't remember where I put that parka:red:

I can relate to that....:embarrassed:.........my excuse to date has been that it's all "for the book".........I think I've got away with it so far, but it probably won't last.........:-D

Just compared my 1951 dated Size 4 British Army Middle Parka (mint) with a similar 1953 dated Size 1 with the attachable hood........

As many will know, the 1st pattern is made in lightweight gabardine, with an attached hood and no upper pockets on the chest......

The second pattern was made in heavier sateen, with a separate, attachable hood (of identical construction to the 1st pattern attached hood) and additional upper chest pockets........

There are a few other differences however.......I've noted that the 1st pattern lacks the inner knitted cuffs to assist insulation and is overall noticeably lighter in weight........

Jason recently illustrated another variant, a mixture of the original model and the later model in that it still had the attached hood but breast pockets added......and designated "1952 pattern" on the label...........is this version in gabardine or sateen, and does it incorporate the inner knitted cuffs.....?

These parkas were still being manufactured up to the mid-70s, by then the majority being made by James Smith and Cookson & Clegg........

I think I have around 4 DPM 60 pattern smocks (Sizes 1, 3, 5 and 8 ?) plus a similar number of trousers....all but one mint, and none cost me more than £30 each, all within the last 3 years........perhaps I was just lucky....

Although they are historical, from the perspective of being the first ISSUE DPM garments (circa 1970-71) and of limited production span (a little over a year), I'd personally far rather seek out the pre-60 pattern 1950's era combat clothing, arguably far rarer today than any DPM 60 pattern.....

Each to their own however.......

Top of my "rocking horse" list, is a "Combat Smock" in green gabardine from 1951 to early 52 manufacture.....I have the hood, trousers and parka, but to date, the smock eludes me......I have around 3 in sateen, but none in the original gabardine, far lighter in weight.......

Brilliant picture.....research suggests 11th Light Tank Coy, RTR...........

The RTC became the RTR on 4th April 39, but clearly there would have been an overlap of RTC and RTR insignia for a while......the L/Cpl in the centre retains the serge SD jacket, with two good conduct stripes, RTC titles and an interesting "star" insignia above his rank chevron.....possibly indicating a driver ?

The single-breasted pre-war greatcoat also seems to remain in use......and the presence among some (British) troops of the khaki side cap would suggest late-30s when this item came back into general use........? I wonder if this was Christmas '38 or possibly '39....?

No, with KD it's a 'frock' the term tunic was not used at that period. Service Dress was always a 'Jacket' this is easily confirmed by looking at any set of pre war dress regs. Not sure how you've identified it as 1930s. The pattern shown was sealed in 1921 and was not subsequently changed.

 

Cheers

 

Paul

Paul....I haven't confirmed anything as "1930s".......you may be referring to someone else's post...? And I have in no way ever mentioned the '30s so not sure how you've arrived at that ??? (check my posts).... I'm only referring to my own personal experience of non-tropical uniform of the era that refer to "jackets"........and I haven't looked at dress regs for the particular era !!! (I'm far more interested at present in the post-45 gear for the combat clothing book where I HAVE consulted everything from official records through to Uncle Tom Cobbly's memoirs !!!!....maybe I should just concentrate on what I do know about...!).......

Very nice. Looks to be 1930's period. Oh, and it's a tunic not a smock

Now there's a question ! The Army, and RAF, seemed to have termed the serge garment as a "Jacket", rather than a "Tunic", although some tropical garments seem to be referred to as a "Frock"..............labeling also commonly refers to "Jacket"....(eg - "Jackets, SD" (Service Dress), "Jackets, OA" (Other Airmen), etc........

Mind you, I've seen some early 1941-42 dated British Army "SAS" type windproof smocks in both green denim and sand, that are labelled "Blouses" rather than "Smock"........

I must admit a soft spot for the 60 pattern in DPM too........ironically, it wasn't too long ago you could still find 'em mixed in with later quantities of DPM clothing but I would guess those days are over......

All the research I have done indicates that DPM started issue to the regular army during early 1970, and whilst some first-line units did do a wholescale changeover from green to DPM, other Arms seem to have received the new clothing only on a maintenance basis to replace worn-out gear......issues to the TA of DPM did not commence (officially) until 1974....

The 68 pattern commenced issue during early 71 (by March) and many troops didn't ever see the DPM 60 pattern unless stock remained to be issued in the QM's or from ordnance depots, a situation that persisted up to the mid-70s at least....and there was much mis-matching of patterns, QM's not giving a damn about 60 or 68 models, only the fact that it was DPM.......

Evidence suggests that the 60 pattern DPM smock and trousers only stayed in production for a little over a year, under only two manufacturers (James Smith & Cookson & Clegg) and with three contracts in total......though all must of been for a fair quantity given the number of surviving garments today.....

It is thought that the changeover to DPM was approved prior to the 68 pattern receiving similar approval, therefore initial DPM production was of the existing 60 pattern prior to the garments specifications changing to the new patterns.....

That's what i don't get, how old is old? I see all the smocks on here have Velcro and that hasn't been around that long, has it? And the second one you posted i used to have one but the rear sight on the gimpy ripped the pocket clean of so i binned the bugger :undecided:

It seems that Velcro was designed in the late-40s, patented in the mid-50s and refined for commercial production later that decade........

First UK usage appears to have been during the 1960s on aircrew clothing, particularly flying and cold-weather garments, and was commonplace by the end of the decade....

By the mid-70s it was also in use on the new DPM arctic clothing, parka liner, waterproofs, etc........so it seems to have been around a while !

The weather was perhaps the biggest enemy in the Falklands.......fortunately, most Para's had already been issued with the arctic windproofs, liners, caps, reversible waterproofs, etc, that although not perfect be any means were arguably far more suitable for the combat conditions encountered in respect of weight than other troops who had to deal with similar but clad in heavier, longer parkas, etc......

Few Paras were concerned about insignia once the action commenced......survival, against (all) the elements, was the priority............I can only offer genuine respect for those so engaged.....

Smock insignia around this period was largely confined to the jump wings on the upper-right sleeve, below which was worn (on both sleeves) the DZ patch in blue or green for 2 or 3 Para (these being either wool-felt or coloured cotton-drill), and below (on the right sleeve only) subdued rank chevrons for most NCO's in dark-brown synthetic thread on an olive-drab nylon base cloth............those qualified individuals also wore "foreign" jump wings in cloth above the right breast pocket flap.........and that was about it at the time......

Worth remembering that although the para smock was used in the Falklands, most of the units had been issued with the arctic windproof smock and trousers that were usually worn over, or in place of, the jump smock............insignia seems to have followed a similar course although a study of period photos reveals that perhaps less, if any insignia, was worn on the arctic smock other than the prized "wings" and the occasional use of the DZ patch..........rank could be seen on the front or rear tabs, or in some instances still sewn to the sleeves of the arctic garment......

Sounds like the type I have.

 

Any ideas exactly when the sizing on all garments changed to metric as I was of the understanding that the easy way to date Falklands era gear is by the pre metric sizing as it didnt change over until 1984 but if it was in fact earlier that complicates things:mad:

 

If anyone has anything DPM to sell whack it on Ebay as Brokenarrow seems to be at least bidding if not buying every single item and especially DPM Para Smocks and 59 Patt Denisons;)

Metric sizing actually appeared during the 70s, but it seems on "selected" garments such a No.2 dress uniforms, etc......I "acquired" a DPM para smock during 1982 that was used and in metric sizing, and in '83 acquired two more, both in metric..........(all no FFD pocket and made in the older sateen fabric and colours)........the same year, I was issued a DPM parka in metric, also lightweight trousers in metric, DPM tropicals, and green nylon RAF-pattern waterproofs the same........but some kit was still in the older size numbers, such as arctic windproofs, all "68" pattern combats, woolly pullys, etc......though some of this was clearly older stock.......

Metric sizing pre-dates the Falklands campaign, so I am estimating around '80 for many combat garments, possibly slightly earlier.........it MUST be remembered that Ordnance depots carried huge stocks of kit, all within individual groupings according to type and size, and some stock was older in origin (eg - very small or large sizes) that were in lesser demand so sat there for far longer, in some instances for several years..........QM's went on the NSN reference when demanding, not the actual size, the demand form requiring the NSN to be entered as opposed to any size.............it was the NSN that identified a particular item or size, not what was applied to the label....!!!

PS - I apply all my ramblings to personal experience, surviving garments and official MoD references....but, as with everything, gaps exist so some guesswork based on reasonable assessment is applied......!

And as a footnote, DPM is rapidly disappearing from the UK armed forces, no more being made.......certain items will, in time, become scarce and I have no doubt that we will see a glut of surplus DPM gear of all patterns and types released into the surplus market over the next few years........current interest appears focused toward MTP, so current DPM prices may have temporarily fallen, although I doubt if this will last in the longer term..........maybe a case of speculate-to-accumulate.....???

Here is an older version of the 'Falklands' parka in pre-metric sizing....

 

[ATTACH=CONFIG]70678[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]70680[/ATTACH]

A rarer version of the DPM parka that first appeared around 75-76.......note the partial lining in green nylon rather than DPM fabric, the "rectangular" shape pocket flaps (the left breast pocket incorporating a pen-pocket just like the earlier green middle parka) and the double "Fixlok" hood adjustment cord stops..........

The "SAS" type windproof smock (non-wired hood and no rank tabs) appeared around 1975, along with the trousers with the crossover-belt waist-fastening modeled on the old green drill jungle trousers......

The Arctic smock and trousers appeared slightly later, around 1976.......

All the above at this point had the pre-metric sizing.....

Around 1980-81 the sizing went over to metric.......

The FFD pocket was not added to garments until around '84..........

Around this time the arctic smock lost the rear rank tab.......

Manufacturers names began to disappear from garments when the MoD started tendering contracts outside the UK....probably to avoid any sensitivities........I think this occurred from the mid-90s onwards.......

All this should assist dating garments......:-D

Of note, is the fact that the velcro-affixed coveralls were originally a RAF item........first issued in grey polyester, with a dark blue collar and epaulettes, these appeared in the early 70s replacing the previous pattern in blue-grey cotton-drill with rubber buttons (also produced for the Army in green - I have a pair of sealed-pattern coveralls for these "universal" items, the set I have being green but cunningly supplied with an attached swatch of RAF blue-grey drill for manufacturers reference....I think the set is dated 1961..??).......the velcro was to avert any FOD hazard on airfields caused by lost buttons........

The Army had their own pattern in green polyester/cotton, secured by small press-fasteners, first introduced around 72-73 (trialed in 70-71)......a version in black was produced for the RTR and also adopted by MoD Police for firearms training and dog handlers............

Around the mid-80s the RAF version was tactically changed to olive drab but otherwise identical to the earlier grey version in detail (though no blue collar and epaulettes)..........

During the early 90s this version was subsequently adopted by the Army too, replacing the press-stud Army pattern.....

Not sure about the black RTR version though.....I haven't seen any RAF pattern coveralls in black so this may suggest that the older Army pattern coveralls in black for RTR use remain in production and issue...?

Interestingly, anyone seen the dark-blue cotton REME coveralls for use by (largely apprentice) welders and air mechanics, supposedly fire-resistant...?

Note the catalogue number and crowsfoot marking too........!

My overriding memory of these bottles is that they always smelt of cheese inside (even when new), akin to a decent Stilton...mind you, it helped flavour the water........:undecided:

Alternatively a pre-1965 dated black mug may suggest green ones didn't exist? (Although I think that's unlikely)

 

More idle theorising: perhaps there was some sort of design flaw with the green mugs that meant they got broken very easily and hardly any have survived?

A good point.....I must check any black mugs I see !! I note that Survival Aids seem to do / did do a complete green 58 bottle and mug, complete with the "idiot" heat warning advice cast on the sides.........:-D

The slots at the waist are for inserting the brass belt-support hooks, removable for washing......I have spares if you need a pair...?

The small pocket at the lower-front is for the first field dressing.....you can find similar on serge SD jackets right up to the 60s !

Looking at the photos, the jacket has been shorted by sewing-up the lower-edge, covering half of the pocket......

There exist other patterns of this jacket, including a version with single-pointed breast pocket flaps........

I think we are looking at the late 80s Jason, in line with the overhaul of personal kit, equipment, webbing, etc........

I have a 90-dated example that my daughter managed to coat in liquid mud at some festival, along with my mint OG 89 dated PLCE bergen.......:-(

I might add that my selection of green 58 waterbottles, all with green lids, came from Sabre Sales in Southsea in the last 2 years.......they were in a amongst a huge sack full of the things in the cellar below the main shop.......the majority were the later black variety but I grabbed around half a dozen green ones (and left behind several more).......but on checking the same sack a few months later all the remaining green ones had gone......:-D

No mugs though in green, despite an extensive search.........

I would find it personally rather odd to have a green bottle and a black cup.....though admittedly, the bottle and mug are made from different plastics............the bottle is more a "polythene" composition, as found on "Airfix" model figures of the 60s and 70s, whereas the cup is a far harder resin-type plastic..........maybe they could make one in green but not the other...? (though I would find this hard to fathom)........

Additionally, the green is arguably more "tactical" than the later black, so the changeover to the latter still mystifies me.....

I'm never one to completely dispel the idea of a green mug, but an example of the genuine article would be the ideal to resolve the myth........

The MoD probably have a hangar full of the things somewhere....! :-D

To add to this, I have just found a trial review from the Dec 1957 edition of Soldier Magazine showing the pre-production 58 pattern set undergoing trial alongside the Korean-era green combat clothing then undergoing evaluation for future universal temperate issue as combat dress......interestingly, the article includes the statement "a new plastic water-bottle which fits into the mess-tin and has a screw top and drinking cup was also on show"........was this referring to the green standard bottle, or, the rare trial rectangular waterbottle (as shown on the "Karkee Web" site), though this also mentions a drinking cup.......???? :undecided:

I haven't tried it, but I doubt if a standard 58 bottle in green or black would fit-in smoothly to a standard set of mess tins (presumably to fit in the kidney pouches...???) The earliest production 58 items all seem to be from 59 onwards........???

I guess the braces never needed to be that long........they served almost as shoulder-loops because the 50s and 60s combat trousers, based upon wartime battledress, came up to somewhere between your belly-button and nipples.....(and still with the crutch hanging around your knees !!!! :-()........we wore tml's (lightweights) whenever we could get away with 'em.....any exercise in the heavy combat pants, particularly in summer, usually led to nasty sweat rash on your upper inner-thighs........

I might add that in common with 37 and 58 patterns, the size "L" belts are always harder to find, even post-war production........

As far as I'm aware, it was medium and large only ! Few troops in the tropics, for which 44 was originally intended, were of a large size as commonly encountered today, plus of course exercise in such climates was a sure-fire way to reduce any waistline ! Add to this the fact that during the period 1945 to the 60s when the 44 kit was used in large numbers, the average troops size was notably smaller than today.......diet, genetics, quality of life today, etc, has all contributed to our larger build nowadays...........

I'm 6'3" and of average build....but I can only just squeeze into the largest wartime British battledress manufactured (size 18) and then it's a tad tight in certain areas.......:shocked:

Its always a balance ..with most of my motorbikes ..A triumph 3SW I have always struggled for parts so .My natural route is to repair , but I have a troublesome petrol tank and despite the authenticity issue would swop it for a replacement if I could ....

 

If ypu can get a frame I fully understand your decision.....

 

 

Jenkinov

I couldn't agree more ! Always a balance between originality, price, safety and availability.........and Triumph singles in comparison to some other makes are arguably an even greater challenge.......