wdbikemad

Thanks, i must admit I find the whole subject quite fascinating,and your book is something I look forward to seeing.

.......So do I !!!! ......bloody thing is taking an age to put together........

I have a couple of "Beaver" smocks, all early manufacture.........seemingly, the company name is still trading today (along with "Windsmoor" of 60 pattern suit manufacture) although both are no doubt today simply a "name" rather than the original manufacturing concern.........

I think there were probably fewer manufacturers of 68 pattern gear than there were of the earlier 1950's Korean-era garments.......I am hoping to put a list together of all known manufacturers of the various patterns in the book.........

Ah ! I HAVE seen another such smock factory-fitted with the earlier '60 pattern drawcords (at Sabre Sales a couple of years ago now)......can't remember the maker but it had all the signs of an early production example, circa 71-73......

I guess this was a simple variation by a manufacturer using up stock of the earlier cord (usually cut from a huge roll).....

I have LOADS of NOS 68 pattern smocks and trousers in storage, of all dates, variations and colours........many will be featured in the book in due course........:-D

I know the US used wolf fur on 50s and 60s parkas, later changed to synthetic, and I am certain that the Canadians would have followed similar......though the idea of reindeer, or coyote is another good suggestion........

The very late Canadian parkas (eg - late 70s onwards) went over to synthetic I seem to recall........

It's also worth mentioning that it is the MoD Police (with constabulary powers) that generally investigate such things in the UK at least, rather than RMP etc........although of course, both work in liaison........the former can nick you and take you to the local plod shop (whoever you are), the latter can't if you're a civvy in the UK......

It's a sad fact that too much new or current gear seems available in the internet in some instances before those who need or are entitled to it actually receive it........personally, I stick firmly to historical stuff.......! :-D

I'm not even going to comment on MTP, other than to say that within the last few years following introduction there already appear to have been several different versions of garments on issue..........I'm avoiding grief and sticking with DPM for the book !!! :-D

Absolutely agree that the para smock became defunct as a field garment as early as CS 95 came in........add to this all the modern kit since, body armour, etc, and it would be surprising if the MoD actually took the time (and public expense)to manufacture an obsolete garment in the new pattern cammo............I am well aware of the MTP para smocks now appearing for sale on Ebay, but am unaware of any official MoD contracts for such........many manufacturers nowadays will make anything to meet a demand, even official MoD contractors (some of whom are non-UK located nowadays)........

Perhaps someone with current (and far more accurate) knowledge than me can confirm if (and why) the old para smock is now appearing in MTP....??........just curious !! :angel:

If I remember correctly, the one I had was a size 6 and it stated 5ft 7 to 5ft10 and 40-42 ins chest,the sizing used on the earlier pattern 1960 combat clothing.Where as the 2nd pattern size 6 combat smock (1960 pattern og) showed the size as 7080/0515 and was more generously cut.I don,t know if the overall jacket in later polycotton was adjusted size wise also.

please correct me if I,m wrong.

You are not wrong !! The size reference quoted was the NATO sizing that featured on labels (in addition to the UK "numbered" sizes) from as early as 66 onwards but more commonly from the late 60s when items were NSN coded.......however, the actual sizes didn't change.......a 1 to 3 were basically "small, medium and large" within a specific height range, followed by 4 to 6, and 7 to 9 (each range getting gradually taller......and wider)...........

Remember though, that as an overall jacket the garments were cut to fit OVER undergarments.......so should, in theory, be reasonably generous........:-D

Sizes do vary however, between different manufacturers, and used garments, particularly those made from cotton-drill, may have shrunk in earlier washing cycles............all worth bearing in mind......

This will be a difficult restoration I fear........both the W/NG and 16H Norton featured 1-piece frames and if cut and/or latter modified they can be a pig to restore correctly without a jig.........cut frames need re-tubing for absolute safety and these are usually inserted into the cast frame lugs, pinned in place, and then brazed, all on a jig to ensure trueness..........

The Ariel owners club may be able to assist with original factory drawings with measurements, etc, but I am not certain on this.....

The cheaper option would be to source a 2nd-hand rigid Ariel frame, not necessarily from a W/NG but of the correct model suitable for a rigid 350cc single.......try Dranganfly, Yeomans and John Budgen in the UK to see if they can help with the supply of a rigid frame.....unless a rare model I personally wouldn't waste any time or money attempting to repair a cut frame........!! Good luck...!!!!!! :laugh:

The front fuel balance pipe is a pain in the proverbial for easy fuel tank removal.........hence many tanks found today have these capped off..........

You can never have enough space Ron........plan well and you will achieve your aim.......!!!

Another bike..?? Don't you have 'em all...???!!!!! Perhaps another obscure WD model.......?

Need to get some pics up here to show what we're talking about........my gear's at the farm (typically).....

Get the bugger started Mr Pier !!!!!! It will keep you awake at night if you don't.....

Fantastic restoration my good friend.........

Mrs M says hello and looks forward to your specialist suspender assistance at Goodwood 2013..........:angel: (we plan to be with the group for the whole session.....)

Yes Steve - I was there in the Summer and they did have some left. Again not large sizes but I didn't have the courage to dig to the bottom of the pile - which I firmly beleive would have been the end of me had it toppled over!

Ha ! Very true Jason.......most of them were the drill variety, all NOS......but I did see the odd late-production poly-cotton variety there too........

Am I right in thinking that these were made in the older "combat suit" sizes...(eg - 1 to 9)...????

The jacket described is indeed the "Jacket, Overall, Green" and issued with matching trousers...........these were part of the revised/new 1960 pattern clothing ensemble and intended as a direct replacement for the old denim battledress blouse and trousers.......issues started during the early 1960s and were worn alongside existing stocks of denim BD until these were exhausted........which probably didn't universally occur until the early 70s.........the revised suit itself was declared obsolete around the early 70s when replaced by the army pattern one-piece "boiler suit" in green poly-cotton (the type with press-stud fasteners).......

The "overall suit" was intended for fatigues and "dirty work" but did see extensive use as a summer and lightweight combat and training dress as many period photos evidence...........I have even seen a jacket with locally-made top-pockets added to resemble a combat smock....!

The original suit was made in olive drab/green 100% cotton drill.........around 1971 this was changed to poly-cotton in advance of the changeover to coveralls made in similar fabric as well as the new "Trousers, Mens, Lightweight" (TML's) but as ever, existing stocks of the older cotton continued whilst stocks remained..........WS Supplies in Oxford still have stocks of NOS large size late-production overall trousers in the poly-cotton mix of which both Jason and I have acquired examples...... (36-38" waist !!!).......

The trousers of the overall suit lasted longer in service than the jacket, being particularly popular with Paras and Marines until the end of the 70s.......particularly when the crossover-belt jungle "Trousers, Green (drill), Olive Drab" were unavailable......certainly, some issues of the suit continued with some recruits into the early 80s (though NOT in the RAF...!!!)....

Until recently, Sabre Sales in Southsea still had some NOS jackets in both cotton drill and poly-cotton (and may still have some....?) and WS have/had the poly-cotton trousers, but either way these oft-neglected items are fast-becoming thin on the ground..........not/never worth a great deal........until you seek one that is.......

Possibly a daft question, but how do you tell if they're made of Sateen or Gabardine as my one has a scrubbed label? It has horn coloured buttons rather than olive green if that's of any help to dating it.

The 1st issue smock in gabardine, made up to 1952, can be identified by the appearance of the outer fabric in respect of weave and weight. Basically, it is very finely "ribbed" in appearance and the same fabric as used on the windproof smocks, etc. As the smock, including the early production 60 patterns made up to around 1964, are lined in gabardine also, the lining would make a good comparison..........sateen, on the other hand, is a rather plain weave without any noticeable "rib" to the finish together with being thicker and heavier in feel and weight.......

The changeover was done fairly early on (1952) as the initial issues in gabardine were found to be not as hard-wearing and durable as the later garments in sateen.........this changeover in outer fabric affected not only the combat smock but also the trousers, hood and middle parka........

Only the sateen garments feature the fabric description on the label, and then not always, and this only lasted until the 60 pattern came in which is lacking any fabric description at all.....pre-52 garments made in gabardine do not feature any fabric description on the label at all.........it's all down to appearance, feel and weight....! :-D

Buttons on 1950-era combat garments are commonly a light green or brown vegetable-fibre / resin type that are not very hard-wearing and seem to deteriorate with age......the 1960 pattern saw a changeover to the more durable dark green plastic variety.....

In my limited knowledge of US kit, I seem to recall that the green M65 kit stopped issue around the late-1980s.....and in the USAF by 1989-90 when replaced by cammo BDU........at that time my (ex) father-in-law was in the USAF (Military Airlift Command) in the USA and his green kit was still on-issue around '89.............thus, green military production must have stopped around the same time or earlier....?

I've noticed that a lot of genuine ex-US green M65's available today are frequently ex-USAF rather than Army, indicating a possible later changeover date than the latter.......

PS - for those interested, recently saw a lot of ex-US OD shirts and trousers, many with USAF insignia in blue rather than subdued, at Sabre Sales in Southsea (upstairs near the British DPM stuff)......this is the "OD107 gear".......many items were in the earlier sateen rather than the latter poly/cotton mix too.........so possibly Vietnam era...???

Need a decent photo of the top, front and rear of the strides, to comment further........

Post-WW2, the wartime style of British BD was copied by many nations, including France, Belgium, Holland, Denmark, Greece, etc, etc........some were closer to the British pattern in detail and material, others less so.........

Nice Jason !!! AND, another new manufacturer (Albert Gill).............

These Korean-era pre-60 pattern smocks are increasingly hard to find, especially the larger sizes.........in the late-80's I managed to find a pile of NOS 56-57 dated sateen smocks but Size 1 only..........they were only £5 each and like a complete imbecile, I only bought one !!!!:embarrassed:

Interestingly, stocks of these pre-60 pattern garments continued on issue throughout the 60s to use up stocks........and externally they are little different from the first issues of the 1960 pattern with the unmodified sleeve design (made up to 64-65 at the latest) although internally are fully lined as opposed to the 60 pattern where the lining finishes at the waist.......

All you need to do now Jason is to find a pre-52 smock in gabardine rather than sateen.......

Only just realised looking at that pic again,the chap wearing the Parka is wearing Hi Leg Boots,in 1982!!!

1982....those boots just might be the lightweight NI boots that were still around at that period.........

The Canadian Parka was a 70s item that lasted in service through to the late-1980s.........the item was adopted by the RAF and RM for extreme cold weather conditions such as Norway and Canada.......I had one issued by the RAF for a detachment to Goose Bay in '83.......

They were, if I remember, extremely warm although rather heavy and perhaps far more practical than the longer DPM and older styles of parka........sizing was (if I recall) in the older numbered sizing (eg - size 1, 2, etc)......note the label that on the example shown has bi-lingual English/French instructions to accomadate French-Canadians....! This was not fitted in all examples I've seen however.....

These parkas were highly prized but it seems jealously guarded by QM's and Stores !!!! I tried in vain to retain mine but they chased me down to return the thing......

They do still turn up today, but as with everything finding one in the right size and a decent condition is not an easy task..........

The OD green drill material and metal button are very similar to that found on Indian made WW2 JG clothing.......

ATS wartime ranks were changed from 41 onwards to mirror the regular male Army ranks.......this included staff sergeant......

This band could be ex-female far east issue....or small male, Gurkha, etc...........personally, despite being an average 6' something modern male, I have very small wrists.......my tiny wife has wrists not much smaller than mine !! :red:

Brucie - apologies if I appear to have misunderstood your quote - I assumed that a question mark after the remark about high-leg boots being on issue was to receive confirmation ? Anyhow, you are quite right about the initial issue high-leg boots introduced around 1984......they were poorly designed and there were many cases of tendonitis......I tried to break mine in for almost a month but after they crippled me I went back to my DMS ankle boots and puttees until I left in '85....

The MK2 high-leg boots were a far better proposition, complete with partial speed-lacing (sometimes termed "assault boots") and the original gortex-lined (maroon lining) "pro boots" often issued for Bosnia, etc, were even better......

Rumour has it that the older 70s NI patrol boots were a militarised version of high-leg Dr Martens......but whilst supremely comfortable on pavements, they were, in my humble experience, useless in the field........

The modern friction plates in many clutches, in some cases as a replacement for cork, are arguably far more hard-wearing and resistant to oil, etc......but the compromise usually is greater thickness...........both the Ariel W/NG and 16H Norton use modern friction plates but both with one less steel and friction than originally specified.......but the end result is a trouble-free, lighter clutch that is almost "fit-and-forget"........

These changes may require some time spent playing with push-rod lengths and cable adjustments, etc, but is really is time well spent............

I wouldn't dream nowadays of refurbishing old cork clutch plates, which is both time consuming and expensive when modern replicas are available........whilst I'm a firm fan of originality, on occasions practicality overrides authenticity...:-D

My medals compliment my sock-drawer nicely.....:-D......they have remained in their boxes of issue since given to me.....I haven't even opened the jiffy bag yet that's supposed to contain a Diamond Jubbly medal...........it's been in there since June.......

It's worth mentioning that occasionally the fibre black RAF buttons were also used, particularly in wartime, but were not too popular post war.....(couldn't be polished !!!)

As this is a tropical No.1/2 dress OA jacket, usually worn for best, it would be brass RAF buttons that were removable for cleaning (having small brass split-rings to secure them, same type as used on denim BD buttons)........

I note the jacket is dated 1955, so by that time Queen's Crown buttons would be in service, BUT it was very, very common for stocks of brass wartime King's Crown buttons to remain in use right up to the 1960s........

You need to source the large size buttons for the front and the medium size for the pockets......they should be rather easy to source, although trying to get a matching set (they do vary) will be more of a challenge......:-D

The belt buckle, in brass with prongs, should also be removable and not hard to source....you can probably rob one off many other similar belts.......