wdbikemad

Hi Jon. Interesting photo. Is this an original trial item from the 70s ? If so, the "urban" DPM may tie-in with the similar desert DPM trialed in the late-70s/80s that ended up being sold to Iraq, etc.......

Do we have a photo of any label ? Is it a SASS-manufactured item rather than an official MoD produced item for trials ?

I must admit that I'm not a great Facebook fan.....

I have some copies of the original Ministry of Supply Ariel contract record books....they detail dates, number of bikes, spare engines, frames, forks, etc, supplied along with each contract......I will dig 'em out and have a look.......

My own W/NG is C4693514......I've had her nearly 20 years and have restored her twice in that time, the 2nd rebuild being to tidy her up and to fit all the various original components I'd managed to source.......she is now about 98% correct to the factory spec' when built, in great mechanical and cosmetic condition, and superbly reliable.........the only mod's I've done are to the gearbox ratio's (early post-war civvy to make it more road-friendly in modern traffic) and a larger engine sprocket.......plus a cheeky Red Hunter cam in the engine and a larger 276 carburetor in place of the restrictive 275 original.......she is now rather quick and will hit a genuine 70 mph.......and one of the few WD bikes fitted with decent brakes from the start...!

When I found the W/NG (in bits), the steering damper knob had the name "Nancy" carved into the bakelite..........although a little chipped, I've retained this original part rather than fitting a NOS component......it's all about keeping that little link with the bike's history..........I wonder if Nancy was a sweetheart, wife, girlfriend or mother....? Still, to this day she remains known as Nancy rather than the Ariel.........

Couldn't be better! A built in tea lady!! It's not me sleeping with her, so I don't care!!

 

Ron the tactful again.

I must remember that Vee will be on the back.......she's rather petite, all 4'10" of her, and you just don't notice she's there (until you get a rather sharp dig in the ribs...:-()..........bloody back-seat drivers........:-D

Ah one of the founders of the NOBS? I ride with them often, but I'm not allowed to be a NOBS as I've never camped at the Coleville sites.......But I'll get over it!

 

2014 will be the one not to miss Steve. Your newly married status will have worn off a bit by then! Vee will probably be glad to see the back of you for a few days!!

 

Ron the tactful.

She will certainly see the back of me........apparently she'll be on the pillion......

Terry Roberts at Metal Magic also does all the W/NG pannier & rear bracketry.......

It's worth noting that panniers and pillion kit for W/NGs were first introduced for contract C11103 (early 42)....my own W/NG (XG 24366) is from this one.......

However, the War Department also specified conversion sets for earlier non-pannier/pillion equipped machines.......so drilling a few odd extra holes is arguably authentic at the end of the day......and the same practice was also specified for most other WD bikes, such as M20, 16H, etc........

Never part with the earlier (rare) rear carrier and fittings though.......always worth retaining should you get the urge to convert back to early spec'.........this is what I've done with my 1940 16H...........

I'm tempted to go again myself...and on the 16H.......haven't been over since 2006 for a variety of reasons, though the last time was on a 16H......

I am at least proud to have been amongst the small group of us that started going over (staying at the Hillman bunker near Coleville Montgomery) around 2000-2001...........happy times ! Sadly, a couple of our founder riders who were there then are no longer with us........

The NOS "pressed" levers as shown in your first image Ron, are correct for at least the first two G3L contracts......the solid type in image 2 (if 7/8ths size) are correct for most later G3L's up to at least 1944 (unless Miller-equipped in which case controls were Amal).......

There are several other differences on early (first two contract) G3L's......most of which are illustrated in the parts books......these include rear frame, mudguards, forks, fuel tank, etc..........I had an early 1st contract G3L, luckily still fitted with most of the early parts.......but I know of at least a couple more that although 1st contract bear little, if any, of the early fittings, no doubt the result of military workshop rebuilds since the war..........some G3L's were still around in the 1960s....

Thanks for the congrats ! Wedding to Vee went wonderfully.......

The one's shown in Ron's photo are the early G3L version, complete with the lightweight pressed levers peculiar to that model......the remainder of the assembly is standard Bowden, as also fitted to the G3 although 1" in the case of the latter......this set-up was only fitted to G3L's up to 1942-ish......

1942-44 saw a mix of Bowden (with solid and pressed lever blades) or Amal, the latter "individual" fittings rather than combination.......the Amal type Air & Mag levers were of the mid-war pattern with the lower "hinged" type fixing clamps.......many Amal components were fitted to Miller-electrics equipped machines........ (often a "A" or "B" next to the engine number to indicate the original type of kit fitted)......

1944 onwards saw the adoption of "universal" pattern controls, that were individual items but based on the earlier Amal type but now with separate screw-affixed attachment clamps.....

As with most things in wartime, supply situations and workshop rebuilds could see any pattern of controls in use.....

Don't worry about priming or air in the system.......these old lubrication systems are very primitive, and robust...........

As mentioned, it can take a while for the oil to work it's way through the pipework and if paranoid you can always put a small cup-full down the cylinder bore but it's not strictly necessary......

The only advice I'd add would be cleanliness........check all ball valves are seating properly, minimise leaks where possible and check all joints for tightness.......

Nice items !.......the army have since changed (again) to a "universal" NO.2 dress............

Interestingly, the Army No.2 dress uniform became an "economy" pattern at some point during the late 70s/early 80s, losing the upper pocket pleats amongst other things.......

It's a good question........the "official" paperwork would probably explain this......but possessing both trial items, I can only think that it's to provide a variation in attachment methods............???

Hmmmm......I bought it !!!! Not arrived yet, but piccies WILL be posted when it does.........

This item is one of the SCRDE/APRE DPM trial garments from the 60s......so needed for the book..........

I actually owned a similar item to this a number of years ago now, but stupidly sold it before the book idea ever entered my muddled head.......it was essentially the same, but the DPM fabric a more "blue" shade on the green......AND, it had a non-detachable green fleece lining, similar to that found in Korean era British parka's.......dated 1963 I seem to remember and marked "GDS Branston" (Garment Development Section)..........

It seems that the military were looking at a number of different patterns for the future combat clothing during the 60s......and these garments were seemingly based upon the (then) current 59 pattern Denison smock design, albeit a tad longer and with an attached hood/lining, etc..........:-D

Ok !!!!.....No excuses.....(other than work, family and a new wife taking precedence....:undecided:)........

In all sincerity, not much free time at present (and that has been taken up fitting a new kitchen for my girls over the last two weeks...).......much of my Forum access is done remotely (due to work) and I can't always open attachments or view images.......we have SIX kids between us......luckily, 4 have left home....but we are still stuck with 2 VERY demanding teen girls..... ...oh, the pressures.......

Nige - Pouches are great.....! A trade will be in the making........BUT, not going over to the farm (where the stash is located) for a few weeks yet.........

Actually, the 3HW box is quite a different beast to the ones used on later Triumphs (1950 on). The layshaft on the earlier box is completely different and is a sort of semi floating affair running on much smaller (iron) bushes than the bronze ones (or needle rollers) used later. Actually, there are very few parts that are interchangable between the early and late boxes (mainshaft bearings, 4th gear mainshaft bushes - need shortening though, selector rod and possibly camplate, most kickstart and preselector bits), which is a bit of a pain because that means that parts availability for the early boxes has pretty much dried up. However, unless something really horrible has happened to the gears these boxes can usually be brought back to life without any massive difficulty. The mainshaft can usually be reclaimed where the 4th gear bushes wear it down by hard chroming and grinding back to size, ditto with the layshaft, although it's probably better to leave this just a tad oversize and then ream out the floating bushes to suit, since it's years since I've seen any of these for sale.

On another note, it's surprising to think that the later gearbox lasted pretty much unchanged all the way to 1968 if you exclude the speedometer drive gear on the layshaft (a rubbish idea if ever there was one - thank the sprung hub for that particular wheeze), not that that makes much difference anymore because parts for these also seem to be in ever shorter supply - a depressing thought...

I think I was referring to the overall design of the box, not necessarily interchangeability....:-D

The same box (with different ratios) was used in most Triumph's up to 1962-ish when unit construction came in......

Incidentally, the Trumpet box is in reverse to most other WD boxes.......you go up-for-up, and down-for-down.....:-D

I seem to recall seeing some examples of Irish Army 60 pattern combats that had top pockets and were to all intents and purposes a dead copy of the UK issue.........

I wonder if these were Irish-made or using up stocks of surplus British Army kit....? There was a hell of a lot of green 60 pattern stuff NOS during the late 70s and early 80s.......my local surplus shop had bales full of new smocks in a size 7, 8 and 9........£12 I think (but a lot of dosh back then....)......

The hat COULD be a trial DPM tropical version......it's made in standard 68 pattern cotton-sateen with a green poplin lining of the early 70s era......DPM tropical kit was under development in the early 70s and was finally introduced around 1975-76.........the hat ultimately issued for tropical use being in a lighter, unlined poly-cotton fabric.......are there any markings...???

There was some production of commercial DPM clothing during the 70s for private purchase and for the hunting, shooting, fishing fraternity.....much in "issue" cloth.........

Man thats cool!

 

I went to a show and the bloke there had nearly a complete set! I stupidly didnt buy it for the price of £2!!!!! as I was looking for 58 and didnt realise what it was. My father just said it was some s**t version of 58 inbetween 58 and 95!

Although age may play a part, the nylon 58 is rather stiff (ooh er missus :-D).......it's not the same fabric as the butyl-nylon 72 gear (I will post shots of the latter at some point...).....the pouches being a similar fabric to the early green PLCE stuff......it IS damn rare however, made in limited numbers circa 1977 for troop trials, the idea being that it was more water-resistant and more NBC-friendly to decontaminate than the cotton issue version..........I'd say it's actually scarcer than the 72 sets.......??

Silverman's appear to have bought the stock of remaining trials gear many moons ago......they have a pallet or two full of the stuff, apparently....£15 per item......:-D

When i joined the ACF in 1986/87 me and a few mates were issued with the brand new DPM Cadet Smock much to the horror of the other cadets who had old battered Green Windproofs.

I have an early DPM ACF smock in the older (pre 77) sateen fabric.......plus bearing manufacturers details, generally absent by the late 80s.........

The ACF finally started to receive DPM during the mid-late 70s to replace the serge battledress............first to be issued were DPM trousers of a pattern specifically for cadets (ACF, CCF and RM cadets), worn with a woolly pully, KF shirt and green cadet windproof.........around 1980-ish the DPM cadet smock appeared, replacing the windproof..........this had NO top pockets plus several other odd features peculiar to this pattern.......

Early issue (70s) DPM cadet trousers are very similar to conventional 68 pattern strides, but feature only ONE cargo pocket on the left leg, no FFD pocket, a plastic fly zipper and 3 buttons either side of the waist for adjustment...........the pattern were still on issue during 86 according to my QM CG catalogue of that year........also, the ACF pattern trousers and smocks feature METRIC sizing, possibly the earliest pattern garments featuring this.......

By the late 80s though, it seems that most ACF had started wearing the (then) issue standard 84 pattern DPM kit, followed by the subsequent patterns into CS95 and the specific cadet pattern items quietly dropped........

I have a few examples of ACF trousers and smocks (70s and 80s issues)....I will dig 'em out and photo next time I'm over at the farm.............they are hard to find now, although good ol' Sabre Sales had a few odd ACF trousers and smocks buried away in the upstairs DPM room quite recently.......

Large size 68 pattern DPM trousers are not as common as the smocks at present, and Ebay is probably the best source......

The DPM combat cap is another hard-to-source item now in any size above a 6 & 7/8ths (55)......though they were made right up to a 7 & 3/4" (62-63)...........mind you, I saw a shed load of Size 6 & 3/4" NOS at Beltring only last year at £1 each......

I must have a fair few of these in my stash, including large sizes........but I haven't managed to find 'em yet !!!! Not a very high priority on my list of tasks at present..........

These are great items......first issued for the 2nd Korean winter of 1951 and lasted in service until the end of the 70s when the DPM version took over.......it is thought that manufacture finally ceased around 74-75.......

Jason has a soft spot for these.....:-D

There are, seemingly, 3 distinct versions.......

The original issue of 1951 made in windproof gabardine with an attached hood and NO top pockets (rather rare nowadays, one featured in an article in Combat and Survival magazine within the last 2-3 years)......

Then an intermediate version, similar to the original but now made in cotton sateen with added top pockets but still with an attached hood.....possibly 1952 pattern according to Jason's recent post......

Followed a short time later (1952-53?) by a version the same as the intermediate model above, but now with a detachable hood that could be worn or not as required.......this is the most common version, made from at least 53 through to the mid 70s.......

Only disadvantage with these parkas is the excessive weight......lugging it around is the key to keeping you warm....:-D

Where on earth do/did you get all this amazing kit from?????

 

The pouches i have with reinforcements to the lid arent metal,they are the red fibre type material,same as used for the MK5 helmet liner spider.

It's been accumulated over the last 30-odd years, and some bits I still have were picked up when still at school in the 70s.....the bulk of the collection however has accumulated within the last 8 - 10 years, mostly sourced from shows, surplus shops, etc.......oddly, very little from Ebay. I have, however, seriously curtailed adding unnecessary stuff now in recent years (unless an absolute bargain), concentrating mainly on items needed for reference for the book.......

I had a couple of early 1st pattern 58 pouches that were almost on death's door.......one pouch had visible metal (alloy) inserts in the corners of the lid.......but I didn't know about the red fibre variety.....

Apart from a few Gems the majority of my collection is junk unlike your NOS amazing assortment of wonders,not jealous in the slightest:nut::nut:

My wife would describe the entire lot as junk........:embarrassed:

Thanks chaps !! When I reviewed my recent posts I suddenly realised that I'd put tons of stuff on the Forum and it dawned upon me that I might be pushing others out. Apologies if this occurred. I've spent an age posting my thoughts in writing but have been too idle to post images, and wise words from others have made me aware that a picture speaks a thousand words no matter how much you write......

And excuse my ignorance, but it never occurred to me that folks use these images and words as reference.......I am humbled.........

My collection is enormous (almost as large as Jason's and Scotch Harry's !!!!).......and I am always looking to trade or deal for anything that may be possible.....anything I can't part with is only because it's needed for the forthcoming book (to help all) or because of a certain sentimental value........and I have TONS of 68 pattern kit !!!! Too much......as I found out on Friday..... (about 50-plus smocks and similar in trousers..........how did that occur....?).....:red:

There are indeed 2 patterns of the early non-angled 58 pattern ammo pouches......the metal-reinforced lids are the 1st issue, from 59 to about 63-64 ????