wdbikemad

I have seen some recent dated 58 belts. They felt as if they were more reproductions than continued manufacture. They were very flimsy and did not feel very strong.

 

They may have been reproductions made in china or somewhere, not up to the standard of the proper 58s

There are indeed now copies of the 58 pattern belt in circulation, although the one recently seen was a genuine issue example......NSN marked, with contract number, and made by "RR" and dated "90".......I have examples of green 88-90 PLCE by this manufacturer and identically marked........

I guess as green PLCE did not enter manufacture until 88 onwards, 58 pattern may well have continued until at least 1990. Many troops continued using the 58 gear into the early 90s, some never receiving the green PLCE that was only in production between 88 and 90 until replaced by the DPM version.......

It was much the same with 58 pattern gear when introduced around 60-61......many troops, particularly TA, continued to use the old 37 pattern up to the late 60s.......generally, the newer types of kit were allocated to regular infantry units first, with second line, TA, etc, following once sufficient stocks became available......issues of DPM combat clothing for example, did not (officially) commence to the TA until 1974, some 4-5 years after regular units started to receive the gear....

Twist fastener 58 pattern waterbottle pouches have not been too common in recent years, although that doesn't mean there isn't an aircraft-hangar full of boxes of the things somewhere !!!! Same happened recently with 50s dated 44 pattern bino cases....never common...until a quantity were unearthed.....

As for 58 pattern ammo pouches.....the later production (I think from around 84 to the end of production) finally lost the small pouch on the side of the r/h pouch, originally intended for the "Energa" firing attachment for the SLR........some NOS examples of these later pouches still show the manufacturers scribed fitting marks for pouch attachment although these were ultimately never fitted........shame really, as the pouch was perfect for your KFS set......

I had always thought that 58 webbing ceased manufacture by 1988 when green PLCE was introduced.....but I've recently see a NOS genuine 58 belt dated 1990.......so perhaps manufacture continued parallel until say 90-91...???

"Never seen green nylon "working" pattern. RAF??? "

This belt was dark green stiff nylon.......cut from a huge roll in the QM store with nylon "keepers" and green-painted white alloy 37-pattern front buckles attached......used for trousers, over pullys for working dress, etc.........a universal item, not specific to any one service.....believed to have appeared during the 70s..........

We didn't like 'em much....far too stiff, chaffed your hips, and most preferred a 58 webbing belt..........

£370 with time left to go......:shocked:

I am now definitely planning my next holiday...............

Interesting feedback !

Generally, there were 3 common types of "OG" trousers in use up to the mid 70s...........

The 100% cotton green drill trousers with the cross-over belted waist were the 50 pattern tropical issue, that lasted up to the mid-70s when replaced by DPM.....the style lingered on into the SAS windproof DPM trousers from 75 onwards......the OG trousers had side pockets, two rear pockets, and a large pocket on the outside of the left leg.....

The other two trousers were the green overall trousers of 1960 pattern......similar pocket arrangement to the 60 pattern combat trousers......issues up to 71 were in green cotton drill.....then from 71 to 72 in green polyester...........until replaced by the redesigned green lightweight "TMLs" from 72 onwards........it is thought that some issues of the older overall trousers were without the left leg pocket........

Two common Denison smock patterns during the 60s and into the 70s were the dark green and brown pattern on a lighter khaki sand base.........then the rarer variant (often termed the "desert" pattern") that featured green and brown cammo in very distinctive "wallpaper brush" patterning on a very yellow-sandy base...........

In my unit at least, some dress variations were tolerated........many guys wore Doc Martins as an alternative to DMS boots......others wearing jungle and NI patrol boots...plus aircrew boots when they could be scrounged.........all shirts, from memory, were KF in green although we did have at least two outsize guys still issued with older khaki variants......

Webbing belts were invariably 58 pattern, green nylon "working" pattern or RAF stable belts........

I think it was once stitched around the bottom and sides of an '08 pattern small pack.

Spot-on I'd say....:-)

Having spoken to many former service colleagues over the years, it seems that the "classic" working/barrack dress of "KF" shirt, lightweight trousers, puttees and DMS boots was a smart and comfortable form of dress.......I certainly liked mine.....

Add to that a woolly pully, plus a 68 pattern smock "bloused" at the lower hem, and you had a practical, warm, and comfortable combination........

My own KF shirts were bleached (to remove the hairiness) and then pressed......they were a tad light-grey in shade but looked smart.......plus sewn-in creases in my TML's......and I felt the dog's.........

Many mourn the passing of this dress combination when CS95 came in.........

It seems that beret-fashion has always been in-vogue.......the RTR frequently wore berets equally folded down on both sides....something to do with headsets...! And at least from the 90s, many paras seem to have worn the beret with the badge at an odd angle......

From my own experience, the fashion in the early 80s was to get your beret as small and close-fitting as possible.....although in the RAF at least, the badge was always worn above the left eye........

As early as the 80s, you could buy your own beret from suppliers, but weren't always allowed to wear the thing.......usually, these had fine "silk" linings and a leather headband........whilst officers could generally go by this practice, for other ranks it was not always permissible........but I seem to recall reading that by the 90s privately purchased berets were fairly common......and accepted.....

To the best of my knowledge, leather-banded issue berets were made up to the early 60s..........then PVC took over.....

Around the early to mid-70s, the nylon-banded type appeared......they were on issue to Air Cadets by 76, so must have been issued to regulars well prior to then.......I was issued a new nylon-banded RAF beret in my last year of service (85) and I think it must have been the 90s before the style changed again back to leather........over all this time period, the beret gradually shrank in width to the small size worn today........

Just after WW2 there were only 5 manufacturers of Berets in the UK.......these included "Compton Webb", "Kangol", "British Beret Basque" and "Supak" (I can't remember No.5....).........

During my time in the mob, berets appeared to be made by either "Kangol" or "Comptons", no others..........they had a plate of hard fibre behind where the cap badge fitted and a sewn-in diamond of clear pvc beneath which the issue and sizing details sat...........first thing most did on issue of a new beret was to cut-out all the lining above the headband, plus remove the fibre plate, then bung the remains into hot water, put it on, shape it, and let it dry on your head.......I still have my (well worn) beret in my sock-drawer.....just in case....:-D

It's a slow process, unfortunately.........now written most of the text covering all the standard temperate dress from 1950-odd to 95..........it's now the odd items to cover (windproofs, waterproofs, etc)......I'll get there !

It is true to say, but even when you first think there's nothing there, a bit of rummaging always produces some interesting and valuable finds........

I never leave the place without something, and the fact that you are free to dig around without anyone eyeing your every move is a rarity these days........prices are always fair too, and in some instances damn cheap...!

Beans in tomato sauce, fruit cocktail.....and mashed potato powder.......oh the memories......

There's a NOS size 9 60 pattern smock on Ebay at present......just under 4 days to go and it's on £255............:wow:

And I thought I was amazed at my matching strides going for around £130 a few months ago now....(and no, the smock's not mine !! - I'm going to hang on to my 3 NOS size 9's whilst I plan my next holiday......:-\)

I dropped into Sabre Sales recently....despite the website stating that the building is under offer, and a few "staff movements" since, it seems pretty much the same as ever........but I am pretty certain that December next year will be the definite end.......

What was there ? Still loads of desert, tropical and temperate DPM, a fair bit of good 68 pattern gear still present, loads of wooly pullys, 60 pattern green overall jackets (new), and still a few used 52 pattern middle parkas and 60 pattern green smocks.........plus green and khaki KF shirts, tropical underwear, etc.......

I didn't pick up much.......got a couple of pairs of nice 37 pattern anklets (took some digging to find a decent few matched pairs though), a mint set of the sweaty DPM PVC waterproofs (need a set for the book), a rare pair of ripstop DPM CS95 trousers in well-used condition but again needed for the book.....a "protect and survive" manual to complete one of my S6 respirator kits) and a NOS DPM PLCE utility pouch (getting difficult and expensive to find for some reason)........

I'm amazed, but delighted, at the responses to my light-hearted original post.....the feedback since has highlighted many of the items I'd long forgotten about (in some cases, rather fortunately...:cheesy:).......it's great to get so much feedback and the memories of others.....we all suffered the same !! This is this area of the Forum at its best.........:-D

Having a sift through some paperwork the other day whilst working on the book.....came across some related info that may interest Forum members......it concerns "new" kit for issue from 1972 onwards.....

TML's - the green poly-cotton lightweight trousers......announced in 1971 for introduction during 1972.....in the meantime, the older 60 pattern "Trousers Overall Green" were to continue on issue but made in the new fabric......

Hairy combat shirt......green version to be introduced during 72, khaki brown version to be made in the interim......

Poly-cotton press-fastened coveralls.....announced in 71, for introduction during 72....version in black for RTR.....

68 Pattern DPM suit......undergoing final trials for issue during late 71-72.......DPM 60 pattern for the interim period 70-72......

New (DPM) parka to be introduced from 75-76...old (green) pattern to remain in use until stocks depleted........

New pattern wooly pully under development to have a tighter weave less resistant to snagging, shrinking, etc.....

New nylon poncho for issue from 72 onwards......

Other items of interest....

Puttees to replace the old anklets from 75 onwards .......production of coloured regimental versions (eg - rifle green) not to continue.....

Tropical combats in DPM introduced from 75-76 onwards......

Development work going on into high-leg boots, new para helmet, etc.....:-D

Not sure about the actual purpose of the oil-cloth crown lining........it generally remains either horrendously sticky (no doubt to secure the cap to your head) or dried-out and as brittle as parchment......

It was either intended to waterproof the top of the cap, although the slightly-rubberised gabardine from which the cap body is made is pretty much water-resistant anyway.......or was it to stop sweat or brylcream staining through the cap's outer...??:-\

The white type were a nightmare for skid marks. Usual practice was to have two pairs startched and ironed, purley for kit inspection. Who designed them, I have no idea and don't want to! The gusset hung about 4 inches lower than any normal person.

Obviously designed for wear with 60 and 68 pattern combat strides then....:-D The waistband would sit just below your armpit.....and the crutch seam about 6 inches beneath your tackle.......

Aztecs.....yuuuummmm....:-) A bit like a Mars bar, but with raisins and a hint of rum....

The original Y-front "shreddies"......:-D I think we are looking at 70s issue here, as they carry a NSN which were generally not displayed on labels until the late 60s........possibly worn with the matching "shreddie" vest (I think I have one somewhere)........there were several different varieties of issue green underwear, from the "boxer" style in a nice cool poplin or the usual "shreddie" fabric, plus a rather nice V-neck T-shirt in similar......were all the latter tropical issue...?

I have most in the collection somewhere, all NOS.......thinking about it, who would want "used" smalls...???!!!!:wow: I suspect that "issue" underwear, unless for specific climates under health grounds, went out during the early 70s...? By my time, you had to provide your own......:-\

Thanks Paul ! Just wanted to confirm details for a couple of items in my collection, and didn't want to ever look for a "denim" cap if it never actually existed ! One soft cap I have is made from the same worsted woolen gabardine type cloth seen on British WW2 side caps......any thoughts ? Another is in a much less "hairy", ribbed, green-shaded woolen cloth.....

I have seen one of the post-war "soft" caps retained by the Guards, but it was many years ago now.....in Brian L Davis's superb book "British Army Uniforms & Insignia of WW2" there are a couple of interesting photos......one shows Welsh guards on fatigues just prior to WW2 wearing what looks to be the soft cap (plus old pattern 2-piece white or light khaki overalls) plus another showing a Guardsman in BD wearing a stiff-top SD cap but with the stitched peak (not the headband though) next to a colleague wearing the standard stiff SD cap.........is this another variation style ?

Cheers

How about posting up the pictures so that we can see the differences between early and late 58 pattern webbing.

Not from me at present, sadly...:-( I struggle to get pictures up on this Forum (system locks up on the few occasions I've tried).....in any case, I only have early ammo pouches, waterbottle & carrier (no green mug !!)....and it's buried over 30 miles away in store........best source is Simon Howlett's two books on post war webbing......

I think the press-stud fastener may simply be an additional securing item, nothing else........not see a genuine example in the flesh either.....:-(

Still a fair bit of Green PLCE on Ebay so no panic buying just yet:-)

I'd agree, but on a scarcity scale, decent NOS yokes and ammo pouches, both the early L & R models and the later (and scarcer) universal type are not as common as utility & waterbottle pouches.......luckily, the green PLCE belt remained unchanged when DPM introduced, although if assembling a set look for an 88-89 dated belt to be totally correct......

Green PLCE rucksacks are becoming harder to source in NOS condition, although the daysack yoke, entrenching tool pouch and bayonet frogs still seem plentiful.....rifle grenade pouches in green are now rather hard to source NOS, with other items such as the pistol holster assembly rather difficult too.....

As for DPM PLCE....still okay, although utility pouches, subtly different to the waterbottle pouch, seem harder to find and if NOS always twice the price.....DPM rucksack "hippo" pads are also hard to source (genuine issue at least).....

Special size clothing can still be ordered today, but is now generally for the individual who is 7'8" and with a 40" inside leg.....I fear the larger waist would not go down well......

From memory, getting a QM to demand outsize kit was a major undertaking....and that was just the paperwork ! Measurements had to be taken, entered onto a form, and a demand sent off.......the stores depot would then process this and if approved send off an order to the current manufacturer of that particular item......the special size garment would then be individually made to the demanded measurements off the normal production line........this obviously involved inconvenience, cost and frequently a huge wait for the ordered items to eventually arrive.......in my unit, when our resident oversize individual's uniform finally arrived, it didn't fit 'cos the bugger had grown another couple of inches !!! From memory, he spent almost 2 out of the 3 years he served wearing coveralls........