wdbikemad

It could be possibly something that was trialled for the British Army and was not selected for in service use, back in Seventy Eight when I was stationed in Aldershot as part of MVEE, we had the infantry lads from the clothing & equipment trials branch living in the same block as us while we were waiting for new barracks to be built at Chertsey.

They all wore different clothing, had all got different hi-leg boots on, which were not even issued to the Army then?

 

Brucie

According to SCRDE press releases published in 70s editions of Soldier Magazine, high leg boots, waterproofs, plastic para helmets, etc, were all undergoing trials during the decade...........so not on general issue Brucie, but highly likely issued to some troops for trials..............as far as I can recall, the only high-leg boots issued to the military during the (late) 70s were (US) pattern jungle boots and Urban Patrol Boots ("NI Boots") that were a theatre issue only.......highly comfortable compared to DMS boots but they fell apart within 6 months and I managed to break my right ankle wearing 'em due to the lack of support !!!!! (they went into a skip thereafter......)

Also worth noting that it was common to take DMS ankle boots to a cobbler for extending to high-leg..........well, in some units at least...

I was also watching the 52 dated 1st pattern combat trousers, made in gabardine and lined......but wasn't prepared to go up to more than £50...........

What is interesting however, is that they featured the LATER 53 pattern non-buttoned flap fly arrangement.......???!!

Thus, I have revised my summary..........

1st pattern (1951-52) - gabardine, lined, with both flapped and non-flapped fly ("Trousers Combat")

2nd pattern (1952-54) - sateen, unlined, with both flapped and non-flapped fly ("Trousers Combat Sateen" - often - though not always, designated on the label "1952 pattern" - it is thought that the 52 pattern refers to the trousers - and suit - manufactured in sateen, rather than the actual style)

3rd pattern (1954-61) - sateen, unlined, with non-flapped fly ONLY ("Trousers Combat Sateen 1953 Pattern). It is thought that the 53 designation now refers to the sateen trousers manufactured to the standardised non-flapped-fly pattern......

So, three distinct patterns before the 60 pattern....and with variations amongst the first two.....!!?

I have a 52 dated gabardine hood, but no smock in gabardine to match.......anyone got one they can post images of ???

Wild guess: something to do with radio equipment? Some of the webbing carrying ancillaries were made from '58 Pattern hardware / materials.

I haven't a clue either ! But I would be inclined to agree with this......some kind of equipment harness ? It was not unusual for the military to adopt existing designs as a basis for specialist kit, particularly with webbing........

It looks British to me ! Any markings...?

The other route of course would be to make a RAF BD suit....! We made my own 37 pattern BD for wear with the bikes at shows, etc, and it wasn't too difficult..........we had a large remnant of original wartime khaki serge, plus the correct drill lining, brass buttons and waist buckle........we used photos and took a post war 49 pattern blouse and trousers apart for the main pattern, modifying it accordingly to wartime style and to fit me........with the latter, I had given up trying to find a wartime BD in the largest size made (my size) in an 18 and was loathe to pay nearly £200 for a repro that would still require further work to look totally correct........I wore it to Goodwood this year and it was perfect.........mind you, it helps having a talented seamstress wife !!! We have loads of original wartime BD buttons in brass and plastic fibre, including the revolving shank type and toothed waistband buckles in quantity if anyone needs any......

The same would apply for RAF BD, but you would need to source the material and the lining/reinforcing fabric.....basically blue-grey woolen serge and dark blue cotton drill..........for the former, try Abimelech Hainsworth in the UK.....they do a good copy of RAF serge by the metre.......

And some wartime.....again, largely on instructional bikes..........the photo incidentally, is incorrectly captioned........the actual location is "Ceasars Camp".....a large hillock located on training ground to the west of Aldershot Garrison, only about a mile or two from the camp itself where many Canadian troops were based during the war..........the location today hasn't changed much save for a tad more foliage, but it is still very sandy underfoot....!!! 10 years ago this area was part of my working area..........Frensham Sands near Bordon Garrison is further away to the south west, but not by too many miles......

Just for info', "War Service Dress" and "Suits Aircrew" are essentially the same thing, although in typical RAF fashion are labelled differently...........the blue-grey battledress was originally intended for Aircrew but usage spread amongst other trades and by 1943 the universal War Service Dress (RAF BD) was pretty much standard issue working and flying dress.......

Years ago now, I had a pile of NOS RAF BD trousers of both varieties, and the only difference apart from the labels was the ones marked "Aircrew" had metal buttons fitted and the War Service variety black plastic.........

The BD blouse in both varieties did not appear to change between 1942 and 45, being of the concealed button "37" type throughout - no utility version seems to have been manufactured.......and all RAF versions featured box-pleated breast pockets with 3-point flaps.......

However, the pre-43 pattern of Aircrew BD trousers were slightly different (manufactured 41 to 43), having belt loops, ankle adjustment tabs and a small flapped field-dressing/fob pocket on the left-front.........the examples of both varieties made from 1943 onwards were simplified and identical, lacking belt loops and having a standard army-type box-pleated field dressing pocket fitted.......

Beware wartime Royal Observer Corps BD blouses....these look the same as the standard wartime BD but feature exposed buttons in austerity style on the front opening and pocket flaps......

And...if you find any wartime khaki BD labelled "Heavy Duty Dress", it's RAF issue khaki battledress.....!

I think extinguishers were definitely a post-war feature, and then on a unit or local level only.......

Often carried on instructors bikes to put out the frequent fires started by novices unused to the characteristics of starting a M20 or G3L..........:-D

It's interesting on the label that the earliest date is 1957.........it is known that the 58 pattern kit was extensively trialed during the 1950s and items manufactured for such purpose.........I think general issue started during 1959 but obviously this took time to roll out, some units retaining the old 37 pattern and some 44 pattern through the 1960s, particularly second line troops.......

I do like sealed pattern items (I have several, though mainly clothing) and the labels can provide a highly interesting record of dates and movements, very helpful to the collector and researcher......

As mentioned, chains were fitted to the original wartime issue 45 bottles with the metal cap......they are secured onto a riveted boss on the cap and the lower end to a wire retainer looped around the neck of the bottle......

However, it would seem, for several obvious reasons, that the chain was quickly removed in the field....and subsequently officially replaced in manufacture post war.......few soldiers were ever issued NOS bottles, and anything issued post war would likely have by then featured the cord.....I have a (almost) new metal-capped bottle in the collection that has had the chain retainer removed and replaced with a short length of cord that appears to be wartime parachute line.......

Speaking with some well established webbing collectors, it would seem the opinion that no British manufactured bottles were ever marked.......I must have had at least a dozen through my hands over the years from wartime through to 60s manufacture......and was issued with two during the early 80s...........none were marked.......although the mugs were.......

Anyone seen the very early mug with the different shaped handles...?

Sorry - no pics at the moment......but I went to a local "retro" fair with Mrs M today, and managed to notice a wartime sailors cap ("pork pie" style) beneath a stall.......

Fine navy-blue melton serge, stiffened, size about a 7, grey cotton lined and Admiralty-issue from others I've seen in the past, no markings or name, but bearing the original rayon cap tally "HMS Belfast".......it's definitely original to the hat, the item being very dusty and with (sadly) some moth.......looks as if it's come out of a trunk or an attic...........

£3.00...!!!!!:-D:-D:-D...needless to say, I couldn't resist............

The cap is definitely wartime in origin, but I am aware that in operational areas the RN only wore the "HMS" cap band......but this particular cap is wartime period.......so, is it a "best" cap or possibly early post-war...???

As most will know, the Belfast was commissioned during 1939, disabled by a mine the same year and out of action until '42 when it was then involved in the sinking of the Scharnhorst.......then in '44 was involved in support of the Normandy landings, then the Far East, followed by the Korean War and onto decommissioning in 1962.......and now (fortunately) preserved in the Thames in London.............

Any clues as to dates/origin, etc...? I haven't any idea regarding RN items sorry........

I would suspect the DPM is a later addition........

The green stuff bag portion was generally always ink or paint-stamped rather than having a cloth label affixed, though some individuals or units may have sewn something on...?

Very welcome !!! Ps - I had years of carrying a slung Sterling SMG around my rather thin body during the early 80s......... Never ever carried with the stock extended........2 loaded mags stuffed into a 58 pouch..........

The Dutch also used and made 44 pattern kit.....and with much unmarked 44 webbing still around it's no surprise that the mugs follow similar and are probably from a foreign source......

I bought several NOS 1st pattern metal capped British 44 bottles and mugs from a Dutch seller at Beltring two years ago now at a very reasonable £5 each......the bottles were unmarked (and undented !) and had the chained retainer securing the cap........the mugs themselves were riveted and all WD-stamped and dated 1945.......the bottles were definitely British and of the very early pattern.....

The rubber-capped bottle is believed to be UK issue and of 195os - 60s production........the screw thread on these is not the same as the earlier metal variety thus not interchangeable.......

As Jason states, a 59 pattern Denison smock but a late production example (identifiyable by the cammo print and colours), circa 1965 to around 75-76........

This one appears to be ex-Air Despatch going by the Dakota patches on the arms......worn up to 79-ish by 47 Air Despatch RCT and 395 (TA) Air Despatch....both based in Wiltshire at Lyneham and Swindon (TA centre).....:-D

Ron...for your info there is now a seller on Ebay supplying repro black-rubber covered copper cable.....(UK based).....worth seeking out.....

Rik also suggested using modern PVC cable matted with a "scotch-pad" that looks just like rubber when fitted.......

Coloured slip-on sleeves still sourced from Electrical Engineering Services....(I have some left if you can't obtain)......

Nice item Jason - PM me with the source - Mrs M is very interested in ATS kit....!!:-D

Rubber were certainly used up to 42 when shortages began to bite, but stocks were used up so some overlap.......

Prior to then, and in parallel, many manufacturers also used sprung steel clips to hold anything up to 3-4 cables and wires in various sizes....these were often a Lucas-made item and very similar to bicycle items from the period.......

The aluminium ties ("Strip, aluminium, pliable") were introduced around 43-44...........

You can buy repro rubber and aluminium ties, but the sprung steel clips are harder to source and not to my knowledge reproduced at present..........best try old bicycle shops....you never know....:-D

I went to the Goodwood Revival yesterday with Mrs M......and for a very rare outing actually wore a full 37 pattern BD outfit, sidecap, belt, anklets and ammo boots.......the better half wore her ATS uniform.......

Insignia....? I wore slip-on RA shoulder titles and a cap badge........no Div insignia and no medals......I am generally a reluctant uniform wearer......I was in the RAF for 3 years, then the plod (currently) for 27 years....so 30 years of uniform of one sort or another has been quite sufficient for me !! (though I haven't worn a uniform for the last 7 years professionally.....)........I did a jump course when in the mob but choose not to wear my "lightbulb".....and I also choose not to wear the range of medals I've earn't through places I've been and time I've served.......yesterday was just a bit of fun !!! Though, both of us thought that if we were going to dress up we would do it correctly or not at all......and although Mrs M was never in the ATS or Army, she was a WREN in the 70s (all 4'10" of her...:-D).......

I personally think the issue isn't one of disrespect, moreso a modern lack of knowledge and social awareness......so many people at Goodwood yesterday were clearly there for the occasion, most in a hastily-hired crap modern uniform rented from the local fancy dress shop complete with all the bling and ribbons.........after all, ask anyone what the ribbons they are wearing actually are and they wouldn't have a clue........

On one hand, those of us that have earned our gongs through time served and under fire should be miffed.....but another part of me is actually quite flattered by the increasing interest and popularity afforded towards the military and our armed forces.......after all, am I the only one who remembers that for the period from the 70s through to the 80s the armed forces were not very well viewed from the public perspective, no doubt influenced by the media and NI, etc......perhaps we should be flattered.....or not...??? I am remaining neutral on this one.....

Just a few muddled thoughts on a clearly hot topic........:angel:

You are quite correct Martyn....all 50s production of the original gabardine, 52 and 53 pattern sateen trousers were made wide in the leg to accomodate the thick liners.........the 60 pattern lined sateen trousers saw the trouser liner obsolete and the trousers leg was reduced in width (but increased in length !) accordingly, roughly by about 1 - 1.5 inches.....

That is one damn fine pair of MINT trousers.......very scarce......:-D

These green rubberised bags and pouches exist in several sizes and shapes....all are items intended for tropical use to keep items dry in packs, usually within 44 pattern kit.......good ol' Sabre Sales had a ton of 'em (and may still have) all NOS......

I have two green bottles but no green mug........even the Karkee Web website conveniently doesn't refer to the green mug....only the bottle in its 58 section........:undecided:

Those braces didn't change from Korea until the 80s...!!! Always issued with 50s, 60s and 68 pattern combat strides but seldom worn.........

Up to the late-40s/early 50s, the old wartime braces were worn...essentially the same but in white non-elasticated cotton tape.......I guess the elasticated version were introduced to save the sudden discomfort experienced when bending over sharply by providing a bit of "give"......

Interesting small-scale manufacturer too....."PUC Group".......

An amazing and detailed summary - thank you ! I recently visited the National Archives as part of my research for the forthcoming combat clothing book.......and as you say, some amazing finds within the files, but an awful lot of crap to trawl through too such as pointless receipts and memos, etc.......the most frustrating thing I found was when a file or paper refers to an appendix or attachment......but when you look you find the document missing.....:-(

I guess at best we will only ever achieve a glimpse of what's there, much being missing or buried in other obscure files......but a taster is always better than guesswork or no info at all.......

Thanks again "Old Git".....your summary is warming, detailed and very much appreciated....

"1960s’ RAF Pilot’s Cold Weather Olive Green Flying Jacket..." (seller - Hogspear)

Check this out on Ebay. Very good photos showing this rare item.......currently on £52 quid.......

It's incorrectly described as a cold weather flying jacket (this being applied to the shorter MK3 jacket in both grey and green, the latter still on issue), when in fact it is the fore runner of the current DPM aircrew Mk2 or 2A combat jacket........

The DPM version first appeared around 1970-71...........so I would guess that this item dates from the 1960s, probably the late-60s judging by the use of velcro on the pocket flaps and cuffs.......

Looking at the photos, it appears identical in cut to the later DPM version BUT instead of the vertical zipped chest pockets has a pair of angled patch pockets with rectangular velcro-secured flaps, the left one incorporating a pen pocket similar to that found on standard 50s and 60s combat smocks and middle parkas.......thus there doesn't appear to be a pen pocket on the left sleeve.........the front appears secured by the standard aircrew slotted taped buttons except for the neck area where standard sewn buttons are used for the closure, throat tab and hood attachment (the latter hidden in the pocket in the upper back).......the lining appears to be identical to the later DPM version and the material of the jacket seems to be green sateen as used in 60 pattern smock production........

I suspect that this is either a MK1A or early MK2 jacket.........sadly, the label isn't visible to show the aircrew stores "22C" number otherwise I could identify it positively.........the MK1 jacket first appeared around the time of Korea in blue-grey, but it's also possible that a green version of this existed......and the records also indicate that a later MK1A jacket was made...........the DPM version was originally a MK2, then later designated a MK2A.......

Either way, a rare item.......no doubt made for wear with matching trousers.......