Jessie The Jeep

I still have many unanswered questions from the previous thread regarding originality and conversions, but at the end of the day, the only person you have to satisfy in this hobby is yourself. For the pot hunters and perfectionists, how far do you compromise originality for practicality, affordability and maintaining the vehicle in a roadworthy condition? and do your personal finances limit the extent of a restoration, or just delay its completion? The Clubmobile conversion is a very interesting example of what is an original vehicle ( Mick, I hope you don't mind me using this as an example ). Mick is doing a fantastic job of the Workshop to Clubmobile conversion, and in doing so, filling in a piece of missing history; a worthwhile project. The previous owner from memory had removed much of the interior, therefore reducing originality, as did any post war modifications. A proportion of the vehicle is original, and much of the rear body, new build. While the basis for this conversion is original GMC, it wasn't originally a clubmobile, so what is it now? a replica? a restoration? a converted original? For those fairly new to this hobby, it seems difficult to find any true definitions of what constitutes originality. So are there any rules in the MV world, like the 15% rule in aviation? or is it purely down to several million different opinions? Steve

Thanks for that. So as long as you have reasonable proof of ownership, you should be ok. What about cases without chassis numbers? How easy is it to register a vehicle in those cases? and who decides what is an MB, GPW or 201 at registration time? So what are your opinions on originality?????? There must be as many opinions as there are MV owners! Steve

In the aviation world, an aircraft containing 15% or more of the original is considered to be a restored original aircraft, not a 'new build'. 15% isn't much. I'd put good money on the fact there there are very few if any 'original' vehicles on the road today, so in the MV world, is there a % figure after which the vehicle is considered more 'new build' from replica parts? and is it then considered not original? and how far do you go with originality? and as Jack said, where do you get 1940's air for the tyres, original grade petrol, oil and brake fluid that has been stored since 1940. Don't weld that repair! the welding rod was made in 1980!!!! As soon as an MV had it's first military service, it begins to loose 'originality'. The longer the vehicle is operated, the more will need rebuilding and replacing. Of course there are NOS parts available, but when is a vehicle classed as no longer the original vehicle? If you build a new jeep from NOS and replica parts, and fasten an original vehicle ID tag to the front frame, does it adopt the identity of the original vehicle? In the same way, is an M201 made from 50% recycled WW2 parts and 50% Hotchkiss parts an MB or a 201? It may contain more original parts than a restoration with a repro body tub, rebuilt engine and a new chassis? But this thread changed direction as a result of the possibility of deception when selling. The description when selling is down the the morals of the seller, so when selling an MB that only has an original chassis and repro everything else, is he really selling an original MB? The discussion about vehicle originality and identity will go on until the world ends. At the end of the day, when you part with your money, it is irrelivant what the seller 'tells you' the vehicle is or isn't, you don't part with the cash unless you are happy buying what you see. If you are looking for a vehicle as close to original as possible, and the seller told you it was 80% original, but you suspected it was only 40%, would you still part with the cash? So getting back to selling my 201, assuming I had managed to loose the log book and grind off the chassis number, I personally would still sell it as an M201, even though it looks outwardly like an MB. The next owner may not be so honest, but in my opinion, it is up to the buyer to satisfy himself that what he is going to buy, is what he really wants. If you were in a supermarket and saw a sign saying fresh bananas, but they were black here and there, would you take the signs say so that they were fresh? Jack, perhaps you could lift all the posts relating to true identity and move them to a new thread, leaving the original Data Plate posts under the original thread title? Steve

Sorry, I'm only bringing the Jeep & the Vengeance Thanks for getting me under cover though. The planes and the smaller display items don't like too much water, and it looks like we might have the odd shower across the weekend. I hope not! Get Brian on his knees to do some extra praying for sun! Steve

Well, firstly, I'm not trying to pass off my jeep as an MB, it just looks like one, and there's a difference. I can wear a uniform, but that doesn't make me a soldier! If I tried to get into a military base dressed in that uniform, then I would be trying to pass myself off as a soldier. See the difference? I'm not selling the jeep, but when I eventually do, it will be sold as an M201, along with the original glove box door complete with the original Hotchkiss Data Plates. What future owners do is up to there own conscience. Was that for a vehicle that was already registered and on the road, or for a non-roadworthy or unregistered vehicle'? I assume you now have a log book? I could understand you buying without a logbook for a vehicle that has never been registered, but the previous posts were relating to selling my jeep that is already registered and selling it on as an MB without a log book. I also presume that getting a replacement log book from the post office only applies if the vehicle is already registered and the details are on record? Otherwise you have to go through the process of registering the vehicle. The main reason for the Log book is legal proof of ownership. I sold a car a few years ago which was involved in a hit and run shortly after. The log book records had my address as the owner so the police came knocking on my door. I said I had sold the vehicle, but the police wanted proof from the log book 'sold slip' that I had indeed sold the car, otherwise I would have to go and answer some questions. I needed the other part of the log book to prove I was no longer the owner. Perhaps you understand now why I feel that having the log book is so important. Oh boy, all I wanted from this post was what numbers and letters went where on the data plate! Steve

as it happens, yes.

That's interesting to know, as I have been led to believe by higher authorities that a log book is required. So what proof do you have that you are the owner? Does it create Taxing problems or did this create problems registering the vehicle? or was it already on the road? You can't even get replacement registration plates around here without a log book. Steve

Yes, the hole will heal up. Be warned that the tooth next to it may be loose for a while until the gum firms up. Did they warn you about the potential permanent loss of feeling in your lower lip and tongue? The roots run very close to the nerves and removal can cause nerve damage. When I had a wisdom tooth to come out, I was given the choice of an 18 month waiting list for an overnight hospital stay, or a 1 month waiting list if I got the students to do it!!!!!!!!! I picked the students! and survived! Steve

Get a real one?? An M201 is just as real as an MB or GPW. It will still hurt if I ran over you! But I deliberately bought an M201 rather than an MB or GPW, as it is a vehicle for fun use, not trophy winning. It is a more practical and reliable choice. M201's are arguably a better vehicle, made with more modern materials, and machining techniques, various areas improved from the original to overcome deficiencies in the MB and GPW's design. I've driven the jeep over 2800 miles in the last year, well in excess of that which I would consider driving a WW2 vintage vehicle. My choices for making it look like an MB are my own, and a proportion of this vehicle is Willys, but if a future buyer is stupid enough to buy a vehicle without looking it over first they only have themselves to blame if they buy something thinking it other than it is. If you are considering spending between £7,000 and £12,000 for example, anyone with 1/2 ounce of common sence would research the differences prior to looking for a vehicle. It you don't you virtually deserve to be taken for a ride. I believe that without a log book, in the eyes of the law, you are not the legal owner, and nobody in their right mind should buy any vehicle without a log book. Anyway, thanks to those who answered the original topic of this thread, I am now better informed as to the information required and its meaning. Steve

What are you trying to suggest is fake? the data plate? the jeep? 1) the log book says it is a Hotchkiss. That is a reasonable clue. It has Hotchkiss chassis numbers. 2) any 'collector' should be able to tell the difference between an M201 and an MB or GPW. I knew several of the differences before owning the jeep. Even a well converted M201 has it's givaways. 3) I don't make it a habbit of ripping off the gullible, they can loose their money quite well without my help! Steve

Brass/Zinc doesn't matter to me at present, but understanding the why and when of details does matter. I just want the jeep to look like a reasonable representation of the Willys MB I am copying. However, the little jobs are a learning curve in vehicle care and maintenance, which will hopefully guide me on a path to be able to tackle future larger restoration projects. Understanding the small details now will set me on the correct path for the future. So much of this is new to me as I've never taken an interest in modern car maintenance. Steve

The Northern Jury vote No! Just enjoy driving your truck for the season on the tyres you have. They don't leak, they go round so what more could you ask for. You've probably spent quite a few quid on the truck so far, and probably quite a lot on the house move, so put the money you save into petrol to keep filling the tank for the season!! You can always purchase some at a later date if the "Nagging Wives" in here won't let it drop! You've worked hard, now just go out and enjoy it. Steve

The following questions are tests used in management training programs. Most of the managers who took the tests failed. 1) How do you get a Giraffe into a fridge? ------------------------------ If you answered you don't know or it won't fit, you are wrong. The answer is ----- Open the door, put the Giraffe in, close the door. The above question is designed to test whether you over think problems. 2) How do you get an Elephant into the fridge? ------------------------------ If you answered "Open the door, put the Elephant in, close the door", you are wrong again. The correct answer is ----- Open the door, take the Giraffe out, put the Elephant in and close the door. The above question is designed to test your logic skills. 3) Lion King has an Animal Conference which all the jungle animals must attend. Which animal doesn't go? ------------------------------ Don't know??????? It's simple, the elephant doesn't go as it is still locked in the fridge. This question is designed to test your memory skills. 4) There is a huge river where all the crocodiles live. There are no bridges. How do you cross the river safely? ------------------------------ If you are thinking about building a bridge out of vines, or a raft out of bamboo, you haven't learned anything from this test. The answer is simple again, just Swim, all the Crocodiles are at the animal conference! The above question is designed to see if you can apply knowledge learned from the previous tests to solve a new problem. Steve :lol:

I can almost smell the coffee!! :wink: Looks great Steve

Thanks, it does. I've only been 'doing' military vehicles for just over a year, so my knowledge is somewhat limited! Now ask me about WW2 aviation, and I could probably bore you to death! Steve

Thanks for the links. After posting the picture of the removal of the Blackout Light in a different thread, Lloyd pointed out that Early 42 Jeeps didn't have the light fitted from the factory, so I assumed that the jeep I was copying was an early 42 Jeep. See below. According to the hood number from the http://www.dataplates4u.com site, the jeep I am copying is actually from April '42. For my data plate style, it says it is from Jan '43 to Nov '43, I guess it should probably have the brass plate. Slightly out, but at the end of the day, the jeep is a Hotchkiss that I drive for fun, not enter as a show vehicle, and only parts of it date from 1944 anyway! So what was the significance of the "QMC" or "ORD" on that line, and which should be on an April '42 Jeep? I haven't found that info on G503 or http://www.dataplates4u.com. From looking at other plates, I'm guessing that QMC came first? Steve

Here is a blank data plate ready to be stamped and fitted to my jeep. after looking at several photo's of other data plates, I could do with some clarification on the data to be added. The jeep is a Hotchkiss, but is based on an Early 42 Willys serving with the 8th AF in Europe. See questions below..... Line 1 "WILLYS MAKE AND MODEL__________WILLYS MB ........................" What goes in this line? So far I've seen, "QMC", "ORD", "SST", and "BRT" ( on British Jeeps ) What should be there for a USAAF jeep? Line 2 "SERIAL NUMBER......................................." Is this the Chassis Serial number or the Hood/Army Serial Number? I'm guessing it's the chassis number. Last two lines..... "PARTS LIST T/M 10 - ............................." I've seen "512", "503" & "505" entered here & "MAINTENANCE MANUAL T/M 10 - .............................." I've seen "803"entered here Thanks in anticipation. I know that out there somewhere there is somebody who could tell me the name of the guy who stamped the plates and what age he retired!! Steve

Tim, how could you! You missed out the Fantastic display of USAAF planes and Equipment! This is going to be a great show, and for those of us in the North of the country, how could you miss such a show on your doorstep? Of course, in addition to the vehicles, display and re-enactors, the Yorkshire Air Museum is worth a visit in its own right. They have the only intact Halifax heavy bomber on display in Europe, made from a combination of original and new build parts. A DH Mosquito, C-47 Skytrain, Hurricane, Spitfire and Bf109 replicas, plus many modern jet aircraft including the Gulf War Veteran HP Victor "Lusty Lindy". They also have a significant collection of Military Vehicles of their own. If you miss this show, you'll be kicking yourself for years! Steve Oops, did I just bump the thread back to the top of the list?

Having many interests in connection with WW2 ( Jeep, R/C Warbirds, Honorary Member 100th BG Foundation, 100th BG Museum, Re-enacting ), every day is a day of rememberance; but yes, I did notice yet another anniversary slip by, and each 100th BG newsletter I receive, the 'TAPS' section grows longer. Steve

How about this then. I heard it just last weekend. Britain used to be an Empire, run by Emperors Things declined and we became a Kingdom, run by Kings Now we are just a Country,.............. Steve

Thanks for the review, I might be tempted next time I have a few spare ££ Steve

It seems from Mick's earlier picture that not all the wheel arches were the same. This earlier picture shows the cut out not to be as wide. Steve

If Britain didn't keep up repayments, were the Americans going to repossess this country and make it the 51st State? Perhaps that's not such a bad idea? Gas/petrol prices might come down a bit! Steve

I took my jeep to Normandy and Brittany for two weeks last year and had a great time there. We got some funny looks as we left the Normandy museums by jumping in the jeep and driving off. Other people there must have thought we were stealing a museum exhibit!!!!!! Steve

For those who's French is limited like me, here's a http://babelfish.altavista.com/translate.dyn translation. Steve "Not-in Released Calais, 20th edition, of 1st at September 3, 2006 with Souchez, meadows of Arras (62) FRANCE. 3000 participants of ten nationalities, 500 vehicles for 3 feastdays, of the convoys tous.les.jours, a giant camping with demonstrations and reconstitutions, a purse and Militaria chips, brass bands, a ball, planes, etc and then a superb environment like every year!!! Inform and register as of now: http://www.vmartois.info/ We hope to find you there many and speak in around you!!! Friendships with all. Franck."