fv1609

Chris thank you for those. Nice to see gloss DBG without the embellishment of too much red paint, indeed confined to the nuts on the studs of the divided rim wheels as they should be. A few red hubs there, originally intended to signify Birfield joints fitted due to a shortage of special steel from Germany as 104 Mk 2s did not receive Birfield joints & had to survive on rebuilt Chobham joints & even Tracta joints recovered from GS Humbers. (Not as one SITREP describes Tractor joints) Not seen 05 BK 06 before but someone got carried away with the red paint. I have seen a few so painted, was it just something done in idle moments, but I would have thought just keeping the external surfaces painted was a big enough task? Or did it mean that a red seated vehicle had some special (command?) role so that troops running to embark their Pigs with doors open not able to see the registration plates could identify it? The Mk 1, by a process of elimination, must be 31 BK 00. There were webbing straps provided on the front wing for carrying a camo net, but I suspect could also serve to carry the canvas from the roof. Judging by the continuity of the surface on this & the earlier pictures these would be right size for a folded canvas, but not useful to carry around in an IS situation. But I'm now sure they would not be limply filled sandbags. As there is no O/S rear antenna mount on the Pig to the right of 31 BK 00 it is probably a FV1611, although if it was a FV1612 it would be FFW but not FFR. The taking of all these pictures of vehicles in isolation shows remarkable dedication & forethought, a valuable archive. So often pictures show chaps standing proudly in front of their vehicles but often obscuring details & particularly the registration plates.

Chris thank you very much for sharing those & letting us savour the detail. This brown on gloss DBG is extraordinary for an urban situation. I have a few examples in colour pics, but without your commentary there would be others unidentified if its in B&W. Strangely the Commer water cannons Triton 1 & 2 did also sport this scheme. I have never knowingly seen it in other theatres but it was one of several unusual paint schemes described in a 1971 RAC manual. Of course during the 70s there was considerable turbulence in the ideas of how to move away from plain DBG before the eventual adoption of NATO IRR Green. What is that on the N/S wings of the Mk 1 Pigs? Sandbags? But why not on O/S as well? Although looks a sort of saggy canvas, not good with incendiaries. 31 BK 00 was being used by the Parachute Rgt in IWM Ref 70/29/3 in agreement with your date of 1970 I assume. 13 BK 06 appears in British Army in Ulster Vol.1 Page 214. It acquired a 3-bar ram (not adjustable & a poor mimic of the type used by the RUC RF) & can be seen in news footage of Bloody Sunday. 09 BK 75 I see still has a pre-NATO tow hitch. Moving onto the Mk 2 pics. Excellent detail of the mesh hoods which seem to have been very short lived. The white board on the O/S wing is very mid 70s. Presumably it was a safety-visibility precaution. Was it actually white or silver (as in the aluminium paint inside) was it wood or metal but clearly a similar size the the registration plate on the N/S? 23 BK 25 appears in British Army Equipment Page 22 They are very much of the mid-70s as you say, because of the position of the wing mirrors halfway down the engine covers. The EMER to move the mirrors to the front of wing was issued in May 1977. Incidentally is that the edge of a Piglet on the left? Any pictures of that? So the colour ones please when you can.

Bored never! Chris oh yes bring them on please. Mk 1s in 1969 ooh. Always looking for pictures of mine 28 BK 08 & 27 BT 95 (yes BT)

Nigel 21 BK 96 was like all 1 Ton Humbers originally soft skinned & in this case a FV1601 delivered to 21st B Vehicle Depot Feltham on 11/10/54, Contract No. 6/V/27455, Receipt Voucher No. FTM/R/3245, Engine No. 7858 Unlike the Pigs that started to be made in 1959 yours was not made into Pig. However in the period 1962-3 it was made into a Hornet FV1620 & was struck off census on 22/10/70 On a date unknown it was recovered by 18 Command Workshops, then went to CVD Hilton on 6/12/73, then VSD NI 12/2/74, then HQ APC Admin Staff NI 20/3/74, then struck off census at disposal sales 6/9/92 It was converted (body transplant) to a Pig & up-armoured in Op Bracelet that ran from Sept 1972 to June 1973. So when it arrived at Hilton it was already converted presumably at Bovington. It would be interesting to see if it still has the same engine which would have been a B60 Mk 5F not a 5A as originally. It is widely held by various authors, no doubt influenced by the EMERs, that state 5A. But they are wrong you should still see the engine plate showing 5A but it should be over-stamped as 5F. This indicated that the original Generator No. 1 with a measly 12A output was replaced by the Generator No.9 which was a 100A alternator. I would be interested to see if much in the way of internal fittings remain as a lot of stuff had to be jammed around dash area & whether the alternator is still there. If it was it would explain why HQ Admin bagged it. Why take the body off an existing Pig? Why not get that going? Well of the 200 Pigs recovered for Op Bracelet many were in a poor state & Op Marble to assess the time taken to make them serviceable showed that Pigs were taking twice as long than anticipated & many had not had scheduled upgrades that were laid down in the EMERs. So automitively a Hornet used by an elite Airborne unit (Para Sqn RAC) only a few years before would be in a better state than the average Pig recovered from a scrapyard. Reading the SITREPs of the time there was a desperate shortage of Pigs & parts that could be cannibalised. With the wheel stations failures alone meaning at any one time 80 Pigs were out of commission needing these rebuilt. So a very intriguing history that must be unique.

There's not a lot I'm afraid Chris, but here you go:

Nigel can you post some pictures up especially of the cab controls, the engine bay & chassis plate please? Are you aware that this vehicle is very rare & if not unique in its history? I think I came across the owner 30 years & he sent me a copy of the record card, but I never actually saw the vehicle.

What was the military registration of your Rover?

As one exclusive restaurant near me once said "If you need to ask the price, you can't afford to eat here"

I have FV16 & I have a Pig. The lock barrels that fit mine would fit any other vehicle using a Switchboard No.1 Some Humbers have in the CES Simple Equipment "For replacement demand - Keys Blank to FV series of lock barrel and to Part No. LV6/MT13/87149"

I have just looked at my lock. Above the key hole is 16 & below is the lock number which tends to be only one or two digits. PS Looking at yours suggest it might be in the FV7 key series, which I've not seen before.

Yes Ian I think so, I have never seen anything other than FV16. Although there is a commercial FV series akin to FP, FS etc it bears no relationship to the FV16 series. I wasn't able to find out the actual pattern but a key cutting man at a show looked around his less common keys & was able to cut a spare for me. The genuine key I have in front of me is marked Made in England, Union on the other side Wilmot Breeden. Then stamped in the middle FV16 then below that in a frame the actual key number is stamped.

Robert thanks for the pictures, they're coming along. I've got various publications for 1 Ton Trailer I'll look up. I used have one with a Cipher Office body that I towed behind my FV1620 as that didn't have much sleeping room. I had a FV1601 that faded away although it was bought as a donor vehicle. Here is the Commer book. Unlike British Army User Handbooks that required a Servicing Schedule, this civilian publication combines both. The scan is rather poor but the lower line states FV1601 & 250 presumably the number printed.

Robert welcome, good to hear of more Humbering activity. I think I have seen you post on MLU, in fact there seems to be more Humber (or more correctly Commer) activity over there than there is in the UK. Any pictures?

PM sent

Ok Jack I know, the President Elect has asked you to run his business empire whilst he is presidenting?

That was a nice sensible on-line form, with a space for comments/requests & even a "sleep in MV" option that few show entries provide.

Dave the sort of documents that are definable would be: FVRDE/MVEE Specifications, I have quite a lot of these but none that cover what you are after. Equipment Management Policy Statement/Letter/Directive, I have quite a lot of these but none that cover what you are after. Defence Council Instructions. Sometimes things of relevance are covered briefly. I have complete sets of DCI(Army) for 1970 & DCI(General) for 1970 (partial set for 1968). But no DCI(RAF) for those years. Were they all RAF contracts?

We owe him a lot in the Land Rover & MV world. When Brian last attended a Dunsfold show 4 years ago or so he didn't look too well & didn't seem very mobile. But I'm glad I had the gumption to go up & thank him for his help to me in the early days. He got me my first Lightweight & was very helpful to a novice. I doubt that he remembered me that didn't really matter, but I'm glad I spoke to him. I remember my mother would always remind me that death was like a door slamming & after that it is no good wishing you had said things when it is too late.

If you ever decide to put it into that role I have the full instructions down to the last nut & bolt well actually it was mainly wood screws, I think 60 of them. The whole installation would take 48 manhours I think, but that was with the full ready cut out kit. Never seen an in-service picture of one but there it is in the EMER. It was wise to plan ahead but as it turned out this was a slight underestimation of the needs, even so they were still selling off Humbers in 1971!!

John yes it would look superb. Imagine taking it to a show where it would be looked upon with disdain & declared shear fantasy! The EMER was issued in May 1969 & I suspect it was in response to anxieties about violence from some quarters with the rise on interest in NI civil rights movement. So the Army would have some IS vehicles in readiness if things got out of hand.

A couple of things. I always used to think that the prefix "P" in a CES meant provisional, but that is no so, it is the production CES. It might just as well be because this is not the Service CES of which there will be a Simple CES & sometimes a Complex CES if it forms part of another equipment. To have have quite a different Production CES from the Service (Simple) CES suggest it had quite a different role. I just wonder were there any old screw holes in the wood or any covered covered over welds above & below all of the windows? Some Travellers were fitted with diamond mesh expanded steel internal security screens over all the windows & headlights. This was in 1969, this was not Op Banner but predated it by 3 months! The CES for such a conversion would list those items. Do you think yours might have had such a conversion maybe?

The problem with all hobby magazines is whether to cater for the established enthusiast or pad out editions to attract new people to the particular hobby with "guide to" articles. This has the advantage of drawing in new people to the hobby who may feel out of their depth reading articles of great technical merit & putting them off the hobby & more importantly from being a subscriber. When I used to buy amateur radio magazines they were swamped with things on resistor colour codes, guide to amateur band frequencies, guide to simple aerials, guide to buying (not building) your first rig. All this stuff could be found out by reading books or joining a club and now these days on the internet. So I can see the need for attracting new people to join a hobby as fresh blood will be needed to keep the hobby alive. But for that reason I don't buy any of these magazines nowadays.

Joe further to our PMs I'll post this here so anyone watching might have ideas on it as well. There seem to be 2 & 3 terminal versions of RRC7310. In this thread there is reference to the 3-terminal version being the military one. http://www.defender2.net/forum/topic33707.html I just wonder whether the middle terminal is the junction of the two main elements? So that 24v is fed into each end of the elements (in series) but in a 12v set up the the end terminals are joined together & fed with one supply & the over to the middle terminal so that the elements are in parallel?

I see on the page you have posted it gives the DMC as 7XD. You must have a later edition than mine which is the 2nd edition that gives it a 7RU hence my comments on my last post.

Do you want the heated windscreen circuit diagram fig 31 of 2320-D-128-302? I can email it or is that what you have already? I have the complete 302 (with all diagrams). It seems to receive the full 24v supply, which is a worry I can understand. Curiously this RRC7310 has the DMC of 7RU rather than 7XDW. This suggests it was a pre-existing item for non-Wolf Defenders, I wasn't aware that any of them having a 24v automotive system that would have had such a screen.