fv1609 Posted February 8, 2009 Share Posted February 8, 2009 I’m trying to find the correct rear hub for my 1965 Shorland that predates the official 1 Ton chassis. It has ENV diffs & 900-16 tyres. Twenty or so years ago I damaged the hub & fitted something else that seemed identical other than the studs being shorter. The nuts do not fully engage & I now wish to fit the correct thing. What I don’t know is whether the proper hub is like all 2As of the time ie 561886 or whether it was something else. I suspect it is the same. But would appreciate if someone knows the length of the protruding stud & can reassure me that it is the same before I order one. Protruding stud 1.30 in (33.16 mm) Nut length 0.995mm (25.3 mm) Below is the incorrect hub. Here it is flush to show the shorter length of the stud for comparison. Protruding stud 1.12 in (28.47 mm) Nut length 0.995mm (25.3 mm) With the wheel fitted the thread end is recessed into the nut by about 3 turns. Had this query on the Series 2 forum for 2 days & got no response. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormin Posted February 9, 2009 Share Posted February 9, 2009 Clive, I don't suppose you've been able to check out a Series IIb Forward control. I believe they used Env axles and may well have had different hubs to suit the heavy duty application. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Johns Posted February 9, 2009 Share Posted February 9, 2009 Clive, I'm trying to think back to my L/R days, the later vehicles used a thinner wheelnut Re.ser3 hence the shorter stud speak to Phill Bashall @ Dunsfold L/R on 01483 200567 I'm sure he'l be able to help Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fv1609 Posted February 9, 2009 Author Share Posted February 9, 2009 (edited) Thank you both. I hadn't thought of 2B, but I had zero response on the Series 2 forum where I thought someone would have recognised it. If Dunsfold was nearer I would take in the old one, trying to explain on the phone is not so quick or easy as seeing it directly. Looking in the IPC the C suffix vehicles & the later 1 Ton chassis have the same hub 561889. My studs are threaded not serrated, this leaves both types of vehicle as having 561590 studs 9/16" BSF x 1 21/32". The only domed each end nuts are 217361 1" x 59/64. The dilemma is even if I could source the longer studs. I don't know whether the replacement flange I fitted has threads or serrated. I suspect threaded but I don't want to mangle it all up in my efforts to try to remove them Even if I did that I am not clear how securely the studs can be locked into place. I can see the serrated ones have a little shoulder, but I worry about the security of threaded ones. I would feel happier in my own mind to fit a factory assembled hub with studs already fitted. Wheels & brakes are the most important things. I'm not just thinking of the recent tragedy where someone had done their own work on a Rover. This hub was ruined after my first ever trip out. I omitted the tighten the wheel nuts & I drove it 35 miles to Bovington. On the Bere Regis roundabout the wheel came off rolled into a field & the Shorland uncomfortably collapsed blocking the flow of traffic. That event is still very vivid in my memory, as a frightening & could have been a tragedy event! The Mk 3 IPC isn’t a great help it quotes for a “Rover axle” hub as 593796 or “Salisbury axle” 599679 both with shouldered studs (presumably serrated) 599678, but we are in Series 3 territory now. Here I am being rescued by Dick Sheppard. Got me back to Bovy where & Chatty welded the wheel onto the remnants of the studs. Edited February 9, 2009 by fv1609 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chrisg Posted February 9, 2009 Share Posted February 9, 2009 The screw in studs were staked in place. One guy I knew use to weld the in if they came loose. or they could be loctited in other products are available Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fv1609 Posted February 9, 2009 Author Share Posted February 9, 2009 The screw in studs were staked in place. How was that achieved Chris? The inner end looks slightly domed inwards. But no sign of any sort of hammering over anywhere. Not sure how satisfactory welding steel & cast iron would be. This may all be academic if the studs aren't available as spares or even if they do actually exist, identifying them with a part number! I think there is a figure of something like 80% of MOD stores are not lost through damage or theft, but are "lost" because the label has come off & nobody knows what it is for! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chrisg Posted February 9, 2009 Share Posted February 9, 2009 Its a long time ago but I think it was in the shape of a cross and it only distorted one or two threads Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest catweazle (Banned Member) Posted February 9, 2009 Share Posted February 9, 2009 Hi Clive,Your options are use half nuts ,you wont like that,wont look right. Make longer ones to fit. Buy a brand new hub from Phillip with the long studs,he has the correct one. I replaced the screw thread studs on mine years ago,they were rubbish,i used the splined ones .you have to recess the hub flange so they sit properly,they will still not be long enough for your application.I tried wealding the old ones in,it didnt work very well for me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fv1609 Posted February 9, 2009 Author Share Posted February 9, 2009 CW yes you're right it would look odd with the junior nuts on, rather than the long double domed ones. I've got screw in studs on the other hubs, they have never moved. Although they have been there for 44 years I suppose. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest catweazle (Banned Member) Posted February 9, 2009 Share Posted February 9, 2009 Clive you mentioned earlier about the tragedy of the man who built his own l/rover ,on the forum his life long friend gave a very different story to the medias,he also challenged the points the examiner made. I have to say i come across more vehicles with pos dangerous faults on joe publics cars than enthusiasts.and most of them are aware they have a problem.:shake: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest catweazle (Banned Member) Posted February 9, 2009 Share Posted February 9, 2009 CW yes you're right it would look odd with the junior nuts on, rather than the long double domed ones. I've got screw in studs on the other hubs, they have never moved. Although they have been there for 44 years I suppose. I found they were ok till the stud and nut came out together,that was the first sign of trouble.if you took the nut off and put stud back on its own it could be ok.i know of people who lenghened the stud with weald ,screwed it back in then peened it over,i thought after the first one came out ,theres still 19 to go,so did them all in one go.Longest ways the quickest.:-D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormin Posted February 10, 2009 Share Posted February 10, 2009 I seem to remember years ago that one of the NORC rules about comp safari was that land rovers had to have the later and larger Series three studs and wheel nuts. Too many cases of failure with the older series stuff apparently. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fv1609 Posted February 11, 2009 Author Share Posted February 11, 2009 Norman, yesterday I went to a LR dealer who once used to deal in military stuff. I hoped there was some NOS still around. He produced a S3 hub. Identical except as you say it had fatter studs that were serrated & pressed in. Unfortunately no 2A hubs, although he had got the studs. These studs, 217360 superseded by 561590, are advertised as SI & S2. They are used in 2A & 2A 1-Ton. But unfortunately they are the short ones. When I came across 217360 I got excited as the long double-domed stud is 217361, so I thought they must be compatible. But not so, just wish I could find the part number for the longer stud. I suppose if all else fails I could get the S3 hub. Apart from the non-originality, I think the studs are metric & then I need to carry another wheel brace. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormin Posted February 11, 2009 Share Posted February 11, 2009 If the studs you require are simply threaded both ends, can't you get some made? I needed some for the Ward LaFrance 1/2" UNF one end UNC the other, bought some long unc bolts and a UNF die and cut them down. Sure it's not impossible to get the die for Land Rover studs. I seem to remember from trying with L/R track rod ends they used an unusual size there and taps worked out around £100 for left hand thread. :shocked: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fv1609 Posted February 11, 2009 Author Share Posted February 11, 2009 They are BSF. If all else fails I might have to make some or get some made up. Its just frustrating that the shorter ones are available for as low as 50p. I just keep on hoping that somebody, somewhere, has a grubby little cardboard box with 5 of them just waiting for me! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
antarmike Posted February 12, 2009 Share Posted February 12, 2009 How was that achieved Chris? The inner end looks slightly domed inwards. But no sign of any sort of hammering over anywhere. Not sure how satisfactory welding steel & cast iron would be. This may all be academic if the studs aren't available as spares or even if they do actually exist, identifying them with a part number! I think there is a figure of something like 80% of MOD stores are not lost through damage or theft, but are "lost" because the label has come off & nobody knows what it is for! The back face of the hub has a circular groove turned in it coinciding with the PCD of the studs. The groove is approximately semi-circular. The stud screws in and the part of the thread that co-incides with this groove is then pressed (or hammered) into the groove, distorting the last few hreads in the area of the groove. To get a stud out use an Angle grinder wheel on edge and run it in the groove, until all the distorted thread is removed. I had a IIB with ENV axles. Some of my threads were damaged, I bought a helicoil tap and inserts. I beieve it was 9/16" BSF (don't quote me). I still have the tap and a few inserts. The studs used the long nuts with a cone at each end. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Daymond Posted February 12, 2009 Share Posted February 12, 2009 don't know if this is any good? but you could try this guy, he's been into landrovers for years and his place is an Aladin's cave Land Rover Replacements 01924 430006 1 Cardwell Terrace, Dewsbury, WF12 9NP Always found him very helpful (but can't remember his name d'oh) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fv1609 Posted February 12, 2009 Author Share Posted February 12, 2009 The back face of the hub has a circular groove turned in it coinciding with the PCD of the studs. The groove is approximately semi-circular. The stud screws in and the part of the thread that co-incides with this groove is then pressed (or hammered) into the groove, distorting the last few hreads in the area of the groove. To get a stud out use an Angle grinder wheel on edge and run it in the groove, until all the distorted thread is removed. I had a IIB with ENV axles. Some of my threads were damaged, I bought a helicoil tap and inserts. I beieve it was 9/16" BSF (don't quote me). I still have the tap and a few inserts. The studs used the long nuts with a cone at each end. Ah thank you I see the significance of the groove now. Yesterday I was looking in a 2B catalogue but the studs were the short ones same as 2A & 2A with ENV. I can find the longer studs with serrations & was considering whether to bash those in. But I don't know how much clearance I might need to create, but at least the stud has a small head to it. Then the worst that could happen is that it could spin rather than fall out! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fv1609 Posted February 12, 2009 Author Share Posted February 12, 2009 don't know if this is any good? but you could try this guy, he's been into landrovers for years and his place is an Aladin's cave Land Rover Replacements 01924 430006 1 Cardwell Terrace, Dewsbury, WF12 9NP Always found him very helpful (but can't remember his name d'oh) Simon, ok thank you. I'll put him on the list for when I start ringing round. Trying to explain on the phone seems better than emailing. In the past I have found emailing companies with a problem is ignored or gets a "Can't help you mate". Was just hoping to be able to quote a part number. At the moment I'm trawling through dealer's online catalogues looking at all studs. Many give no description so I try & cross reference it to somewhere else with particular interest in early part numbers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andrewroberts.1953 Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 Clive, I had the same problem with a 1962 FFR Mk8. For MOD use, the studs are longer. This is to accomadate the double ended wheel nuts. If you get hold of the longer studs from MOD stock, you will find that one end has a rim around the shorter threaded end. This goes into the hub, and this is pained over to lock the stud. I can't remember were mine came from, but I will try and finf my notes. I may even have a part number, but don't hold your breath! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fv1609 Posted February 13, 2009 Author Share Posted February 13, 2009 Andrew, well that's certainly a relief to hear someone else was faced with the same problem. I have the IPC for Rovers 10 & 11 but they use the short stud. Well if you turn up a part no. that would be something tangible to go on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fv1609 Posted February 13, 2009 Author Share Posted February 13, 2009 I think I might be onto something: http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/SERIES-1-and-Early-2-LAND-ROVER-WHEEL-STUDS-SET-OF-10_W0QQitemZ230295234171QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_CarsParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM?hash=item230295234171&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=72%3A1683|66%3A2|65%3A12|39%3A1|240%3A1318 Now these look long enough & although are serrated, I don't know whether they can simply be banged in to a threaded hole or require reaming. I had been looking for screw-in studs, but maybe these were an improved replacement to be used on a tapped hole? I have asked the seller for the length & whether they fit the double domed nut 217361. I can now see other dealers have them for about a third the price, but there is minimal info on their lists. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest catweazle (Banned Member) Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 Clive they look the same as i fitted to my s1 years ago,they will be too short i am sure,i had to countersink the flange to get the full nut as it was ,i also used the nut with the smaller thread but larger outer same as s3 0r late 2a,i bet phillip has the pt no you want if one exists i bet he may even have the studs.He has the hub.be safe get a hub all this messing around with these old threads:shake: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fv1609 Posted February 13, 2009 Author Share Posted February 13, 2009 In the IPC this stud 561886 appears as the serrated alternative to the threaded 561590, which is too short & I'm sure is the one I have on my hub. Counting the turns & translating those to the serrated area gave me the impression it might have been longer. I hoped the vendor would have measured them for me. Although they are more expensive than other dealers, if he has gone to the trouble of taking pictures for his advert & hopefully answering my questions, I was going to buy from him. In the same way if a shop is prepared to give me advice on a product I will buy it there rather than sneak of to buy it on-line where there a no such staff or overheads. I have looked at Philip's stock list & did a search for "studs" (no funny comments please) I wrote down the part numbers for them all & did searches to find out what they were. I didn't unearth anything that was eligible. Originally I was thinking of a complete hub, but as hopes for that faded, spurred on by the cheapness of studs I was drawn to changing them myself. But it is just so frustrating not being able to identify a part number. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andrewroberts.1953 Posted February 16, 2009 Share Posted February 16, 2009 Clive, sorry I did not get chance to look for part number etc over the weekend. But, I seem to remember that the long studs stopped after the Mk8. It was normal for all MOD vehicles up to then, but only aption after that. So you will need to go back to an old mk8 /9 parts list. I think mine came from Blanchards, but harry my last remaining brain cell my not be fully awake! Mine were screw in, and I put a bit of thread lock on, and pained them just to make sure. I also seem to remember, a chap did nothing but LR nuts, bolts, etc. If you can find him, he will have them I would expect. The other thing I remembered, I am sure the same hub is used on the 2.6 six cylinder LWB. But again, you need a very early one. Hope that helps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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