rewdco Posted November 13, 2020 Share Posted November 13, 2020 A Delcampe auction that I was very interested in ended on Armistice Day. Unfortunately my sniper didn't "shoot" (well, it was Armistice Day... ) Anyway, here's the auction scan. I think this is the first and the only photograph that I have ever seen of one of the Enfield outfits in France. Well, at least that's what I think it is, the outfit has been modified a bit... Any thoughts...? And what does this forum think about the anti aircraft lorry at the left hand side of the picture? Jan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
11th Armoured Posted November 13, 2020 Share Posted November 13, 2020 Not sure about "anti aircraft lorry", to be honest - that looks like a Belgian Minerva armoured car to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rewdco Posted November 13, 2020 Author Share Posted November 13, 2020 Ooh... Why didn't I see this myself...? 😊 Thanks for your help! Jan 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Great War truck Posted November 13, 2020 Share Posted November 13, 2020 Yes, it does look like an Enfield with a Minerva behind it. So probably Belgium, but didnt a load of Minerva's also go to Russia? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rewdco Posted November 13, 2020 Author Share Posted November 13, 2020 These are Belgian cobblestones, I recognise them! 😂 No, serious now, some Minervas went to Russia, that's true, and Enfield also sold a few contracts to Russia. So maybe this isn't Belgium (or the North of France) after all...? Need to check my Russian Enfield documentation... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rewdco Posted November 13, 2020 Author Share Posted November 13, 2020 Just had a look at the details of the Russian contracts. There were two large contracts: the first one was delivered in October 1914, the second contract dates from 1917. The 1914 models had a front mudguard which went between the fork legs, from 1915 onwards the forks went through the front mudguard (like in the picture above). So this can't have been an October 1914 Russian motorcycle. And the 1917 contract was for motorcycles with a colonial frame. This frame gives more ground clearance, but it also has a different petrol tank, which is quite easy to recognise. And they had different handlebars as well... So no, definitely not a Russian contract outfit. And it does look very much like a 5MMGB combination, with a modified sidecar... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
11th Armoured Posted November 14, 2020 Share Posted November 14, 2020 Just a thought - weren't the Motor Machine Gun Batteries armed with Vickers guns? I don't think I remember seeing a British combo armed with a Lewis gun before. I note that the Belgians used the Lewis as well though, including on some of the Minervas I think, so could the bike combo also actually be Belgian? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Great War truck Posted November 14, 2020 Share Posted November 14, 2020 Yes, you are right. It is very unusual to see a Lewis on a combination like that. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
11th Armoured Posted November 14, 2020 Share Posted November 14, 2020 I did find this photo (third post down) just after I posted above, but I don't think it was a particularly common occurrence.https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/173218-ww1-military-motors-1916-set-x-50-cards/page/43/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Great War truck Posted November 14, 2020 Share Posted November 14, 2020 Oh yes. I remember seeing that one now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rewdco Posted November 14, 2020 Author Share Posted November 14, 2020 The Belgian Government bought several contracts of Royal Enfield 3HP models. The outfit in the original photograph is a 6HP. I have put all the information that I have on the 5MMGB outfits in a thread on the Great War Forum: https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/258012-5-motor-machine-gun-battery-research/ 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rewdco Posted December 19, 2020 Author Share Posted December 19, 2020 More than a month ago I missed an interesting photograph on Delcampe, due to a problem with my sniper. I contacted the seller, but obviously there was nothing he could do, the picture was sold. But last week I was contacted by the seller, the buyer had not paid yet, if I was still interested? Of course I was! This is how I have become the custodian of this picture after all! I've done a 600DPI scan (that's all my scanner can do), here are two details. The bike and the Minerva. If you compare the picture above with the picture below, it is easy to see how the side car was modified. And it is equipped with an (unusual) Lewis Gun... But here's a story... The Royal Enfield factory delivered 18 outfits in December 1914 to the "War Office - London". These outfits went to the 5 Motor Machine Gun Battery, who were sent to the front in France in early 1915. There were more Motor Machine Gun Batteries, but by reading the War Diaries, I know that only 5MMGB used Enfields. And all MMG Batteries had Vickers Guns... In the factory ledgers I found that 14 extra outfits had been delivered in June - July 1915. Destination "War Office" (as opposed to "War Office - London" for the first batch of 18). As explained, they were not used by a British Army MMGB. And 14 is an unusual quantity, a MMGB always consisted of 18 combinations. In the factory Archives I found some photographs of this second batch. Biggest difference with the bikes from the first batch is that the first batch (December 1914) had stirrup front brakes, the second batch (June - July 1915) had dummy rim front brakes. Unfortunately it was impossible to work out if the motorcycle in my "new" photograph has a stirrup front brake or a dummy rim front brake (in other words, if this may have been one of the outfits from the mysterious second batch)... Until my eagle-eyed friend Richard Payne gave me the information that I was looking for... Does this motorcycle have stirrup brakes, or dummy rim brakes? In other words: first batch (December 1914) or second batch (June - July 1915)? Well, although we can't see either the stirrup system or the dummy rim, we can clearly see the cable that actuates the dummy rim brake on the left hand side of the forks! So this is a second contract bike, and as there is no proof at all that these second contract bikes were ever used by a British Motor Machine Gun Battery, I am more and more convinced that this second batch must have been used by the Belgian Army! After all, Lewis Guns had been produced in Belgium from 1913 onwards, the British Army only started to use them in 1915 (this may explain the Lewis Gun on the sidecar). And there's a Minerva Automitrailleuse just behind. And the Belgian Government had already ordered 4 contracts of 50 motorcycles (the smaller 3HP solo model) in September 1914. The 3HP bikes were delivered to the "Belgian Government" according to the Ledgers, but in September 1914 Belgium wasn't completely occupied yet. In June - July 1915 it was, apart from a small part behind the river Yser (hence delivery to the "War Department"...?). So... I'm pretty sure that I have discovered something here! Any remarks or additional photographs would be more than welcome! Jan 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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