webkitlover Posted February 4, 2019 Share Posted February 4, 2019 Aha! I have a mystery green Nylon pouch (looks like 58" style) the markings are:stamped in black: "C.W. 3 38566" (and a crows foot) so would I be correct in thinking "C.W." is "Clifford Williams & Son Ltd? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TaggieMac Posted June 3, 2020 Share Posted June 3, 2020 On 4/8/2015 at 6:13 PM, Edward53 said: In about 1970 the British Ministry of Defence stopped including dates in the labels and markings of most military clothing and equipment, a cause of much confusion to collectors of postwar kit. It is nevertheless possible to date these items fairly closely from labels and markings, using the MoD contract number. All British military clothing and equipment procured through official channels was, and still is, marked with a contract number. These followed fairly consistent timelines, with different contract codes such as eg CT2, CT3 and CT4 seemingly using unique numbers from a shared sequence. The CT code in a contract denotes a Section within the Ministry of Defence Contracts Branch - see Post 7 at this link. Luckily some items, mainly NBC equipment, rucksacks, jerseys and a few odd exceptions, continued to be dated after 1970. Matching up these dates with contract numbers enables a date to be inferred for other, undated items with similar contract numbers. This is not an infallible guide, as contracts for different items may have run at different rates, but it is a fairly reliable one. To take an example: suppose we know that an item with, say, contract number CT2A/904 was made in October 1981, and we have an undated item with contract number CT4B/844. We would assume this item was made around the same time as the first one or slightly earlier. Even allowing for different contract running times, CT4B/844 is unlikely to be a lot later than October 1981. Since CT4B/844 is a contract for a windproof arctic smock, and since a smock with this contract number in the Imperial War Museum is known to have been worn in the Falklands campaign, we can more or less confirm this even though we have no other way to date that garment. Early contracts seem to have been allocated to different contract offices according to the type of item contracted for, though not consistently. A/78/CLO is presumably short for Clothing, but whilst some equipment is stamped A/78/G.S. (General Service?), sometimes CLO is also used on equipment, eg. A/78/CLO/47456/CB(CT)2B is a para bergan. The CT series, which follows A/78, uses CT2 for equipment and NBC kit, CT3 for headgear and CT4 for clothing. The SL series is however not ordered in this way, and contract codes remain mixed until the DC series, with DC2 appearing to represent clothing and other items made from cotton-type fabric, and DC1 used for almost everything else. Unfortunately, neither MoD contracts branch nor the Public Records Office have a record of the numbering system for older contracts, or if they do, they are unable to locate it. If enough dated items are arranged in sequence, it can be seen that contract codes changed every few years, with a degree of overlap. Approximately: A/78 - early-mid 1960s to 1979 CT2, CT3, CT4 - 1979 to 1985 SL31 - 1983 to 1990 SL32 - 1985 to 1994 SL33 - 1989 to 1995 SL34 - 1990 to 1994 ST1 - 1994 to 2003 CT34 - 1995 to 1997 CT1A - 1996 to 1997 CC2 - 1996 to 2007 OC2 - 2002 to 2003 CC - 2004 to 2007 DC1, DC2, ESL - 2003 to at least 2010 Some of these contract ranges are very tentative, especially OC and CC for each of which just two dated items were available. There is also the unclassifiable oddity SL3 which only occurs only once. Below is a list in date order of dated contract numbers collected from various sources, mostly ebay: A/78/CLO/15578/CT4A – No. 2 dress trousers, H Lotery, 1966 A/78/CLO/16276/CT5(a) – jacket overall, J Smith & Co, 1966 A/78/CLO/16810/CT5(a) – trousers overall, Ashton’s overalls (Marple) Ltd, 1966 A/78/CLO/17450/CT5a – combat smock, J Smith & Co, 1966 A/78/G.S./13101/G.S. 1a(1) – NBC trousers, Remploy, packed May 1967 (1966 date deleted) A/78/CLO/23153/CT5A – NBC gloves, DAC, 1968 A/78/G.S./20148/G.S. 1a(1) – NBC trousers, Remploy, packed Aug 1969 A/78/CLO/32935/DC67 (1) – NBC gloves, packed Nov 1971 A/78/CLO/33893/DC69 (1) – 68 pattern smock, CW Son Ltd, 1971 A/78/CLO/38647/DC69 (1) – 68 pattern trousers, CW Son Ltd, 1972 A/78/CLO/38799/DC67 – respirator case, BHE Ltd, 1972 A/78/CLO/41990/CB(CT)2A – NBC gloves, Dipco, Dec 1973 A/78/CLO/44665/CB(CT)2C – NBC gloves, SG Ltd, 1974 A/78/CLO/41465//M/CB(CT)1C – drawers cellular, Meridian Ltd, Feb 1975 [above is contract no on garment, batch label also gives “Order A/78/CLO/41851/1/M/CB(CT)1C”] A/78/CLO/46903/CB(CT)2C – NBC suit, XAT, 1975 A/78/CLO/47456/CB(CT)2B - rucksack, M.E.L, 1975 A/78/CLO/46905/CB(CT)2C – NBC smock, SPE, Jan 1976 A/78/CLO/50169/CB(CT) – NBC overboots, maker not stated, Jan 1977 A/78/CLO/50662/CB(CT)1C – jersey man's heavy, TWK, 1977 A/78/CLO/52159/CB(CT)2A – sleeping bag, CQC, 1977 A/78/CLO/55654/CB(CT)2B – casualty bag, Remploy, packed May 1978 A/78/CLO/57092/CB(CT)4A - jersey, heavy, Remploy, 1979 A/78/CLO/57761/CB(CT)2B – NBC smock, maker not shown, April 1979 A/78/CLO/57761/CB(CT)2B – NBC smock, maker not shown, April 1979 A/78/CLO/56726/CB(CT) 2B – NBC gloves, S.G. Ltd, packed May 1979 A/78/CLO/57761/CB(CT)2B – NBC trousers, maker not shown, Dec 1979 CT4B/17 – flak jacket, James Smith and Co, 1979 CT2B/232 – respirator haversack, Remploy, 1979 CT2B/436 – NBC Mk3 trousers, no maker, fabric date July 1979 CT3B/566 – lowland spats, Hobsons, 1979 CT2B/339 – casualty protective bag, Remploy, 1980 CT2B/431 – NBC smock, Remploy, 1980 CT2B/496 – S6 respirator haversack, Remploy, 1980 CT2B/544 – NBC smock, James Smith, 1980, Jan 1981 (fabric date 4/80) CT2A/618 – thermal overboots, Remploy, 1980 CT2B/436 – NBC trousers, no maker, Nov 1980, Mar 1981 CT2B/496 – S6 respirator haversack, Remploy, 1981 CT2B/723 – NBC suit, Remploy, fabric 6/81, packed 11/81 CT4A/803 – jersey man's heavy, Remploy, 1981 CT4B/844 - dpm arctic smock, 180/96, GQ Defence Equipment Ltd, 1982 or earlier (IWM – issued to war artist Linda Kitson) CT2A/904 – NBC overboots, LBRCo, Oct 1981 CT2B/895 – NBC gloves, S.G. Ltd, packed July 1982 CT2B/962 – NBC smock, Remploy, June, Aug, Oct. 1982 [fabric Oct 81] CT2B/980 – respirator haversack, Remploy, 1982 CT4A/1000 - jersey, J Pick & Sons Ltd, 1982 CT4A/1001 – jersey, Remploy, 1982 CT2A/1150 – sleeping bag, CQC, 1982 CT2A/1285 - NBC gloves, Dipco, Feb, Dec 1982 CT2B/1202 – NBC suit, fabric date June 1982, packed March 1983 CT2A/1477 – 58 patt poncho roll, CWL, 1982 CT2A/1553 – Arctic rucksack, CQC, 1982 CT2A/2630 – NBC overboots, LBRCo, June 1983 CT4A/1023 – Jersey, Remploy, 1983 CT2B/1202 – NBC trousers, Remploy, Oct 1983 CT2B/1238 - Individual Protection Kit, Remploy, 1983 CT2A/1555 – sleeping bag, CQC, 1983 CT2A/1682 – rucksack, CQC, 1983 CT4B/1634 – smock reversible, Vacuum Reflex Ltd, Dec 1983 CT2B/896 – NBC gloves, S.G. Ltd, packed Feb 1984 CT2B/1415 – facelet mask, CQC, 1984 CT4A/1401 – jersey, TWK, 1984 CT4B/1415 – NBC facelet, Remploy, July 1984 CT4B/1895 - PVC trousers, ?, June 1984 CT2B/1528 – NBC suit, Remploy, July 1984, March 1985 CT4A/1610 – Jersey, heavy wool, Remploy, 1984/85 CT2B/1528 – NBC trousers, Remploy, 1985 CT2B/1653 – NBC trousers, Remploy, 1985 CT2A/2061 – rucksack, CQC, 1984 CT2A/2630 – NBC overboots, Leyland & B’ham Rubber Company, June 1985 SL32b/1872 – NBC gloves, S.G. Ltd, packed Dec 1985 SL32b/1900 – NBC smock, no maker, 1985 SL31a/1952 – Jersey, J Pick & Sons Ltd, 1985 SL31b/2385 - PVC trousers, ?, Dec 1985 SL32b/1981 – NBC gloves, Dipco, 1986 SL32b/1987 – NBC suit, Remploy, July 1986 SL32b/1988 – NBC suit, J S & Co (Derby), July 1986 SL31a/2189 – NBC trousers, Supercraft, packed June 1987 SL32b/2091 – NBC gloves, S.G. Ltd, packed July 1987 SL31a/2349 – NBC overboots, LBR, packed July 1987 SL32b/2389 – Jersey Heavy Wool, J Pick & Sons Ltd, 1987 SL32b/2450 – visor cover, Helmets Ltd, 1987 SL31b/2877 – OD foul weather jacket, Mileta Sports Ltd, 1987 SL32a/3754 – NBC personal protection kit, Remploy, 1987 SL32a/3891 - sleeping bag liner, ?, June 1987 SL31a/2441 - chemical casualty bag, ?, packed Dec 1987 SL31a/2442 – chemical casualty bag, Remploy, Jan 1988 SL32a/4058 – bergen, CQC, 1988 SL32a/4261 - various PLCE equipment items, ?, March 1988. SL32a/4296 – sleeping bag cover, CQC, 1988 SL31b/2935 – NBC suit, Remploy, Oct 1988 SL31b/2935 - NBC trousers, Remploy, Dec 1988 SL33b/3773 – NBC gloves, S.B. Ltd, packed Mar 1989 SL33a/4??? – 58 patt pouch, CWL, 1989 SL32a/4661 – Rucksack long, CWL, 1989 SL31b/3205 – NBC trousers, Remploy, Dec 1989 SL31b/3085 – NBC gloves, J North & Sons, 1990 SL33b/4444 – NBC gloves, C.W.S. Ltd, Feb 1990 SL33b/4481 – NBC gloves, S.B. Ltd, Feb 1990 SL32b/5028 – NBC overboots, maker not stated, packed 1990 SL33c/391 – headover/balaclava, VMC, 1990 SL32b/5254 – NBC suit, Remploy, Aug 1990, May 1991 SL3/7/51 – NBC suit, J Compton Sons, packed June 1991 SL34b/0146 – NBC smock, Remploy, July 1991 SL32a/4616 – bivouac bag, CQC, 1991 SL32a/5519 – rifle grenade pouch, CQC, 1991 SL34b series – 1990 to early/mid 90s (ddpm clothing) SL32a/5578 – PLCE side pouch, Remploy, 1991 SL32a/5578 – PLCE frog, Remploy, 1991 SL32a/5788 – compression sack for sleeping bag, A.I.L., 1992 SL34b/0246 – NBC suit, Remploy, 6/92, 10/92 (fabric date 9/91), 3/93 SL34b/0490 – NBC overboots, bp, packed Nov 1992 SL32A/5975 – respirator haversack, CWL, 1993 SL32a/6123 – dpm respirator haversack, Remploy, 1993 SL32a/6174 – rifle grenade pouch, Jacon, 1993 SL32a/6320 – dpm PLCE frog, Remploy, 1994 SL34b/0742 – NBC overboots, LBR, packed Sept 1994 SL34b/0757 – overalls white, Supercraft, 1994 ST1A/1292 – NBC suit, LBRCO, 1994 ST1A/1406 – 2nd patt pre-S95 desert trousers – 1993-1995? SL33b/5489 – NBC gloves, OWR-H, packed Jan 1995 CT/CB 34B/0969 – NBC overboots, maker not stated, March 1995 SL34b/0281 – NBC gloves, James North & Sons Ltd, packed Nov 94, Apr 95 CC2/1531 – Soldier 95 ripstop smock, 1995-2000 CT32A/6688 – SA80 cover, 1995 CT34B/1036 – NBC overboots, Oct 1995 CT34B/1039 – gaiters GS, 1995 and 1996 CT34B/1060 – gaiters GS, 1995 CT1A/1005 – PLCE belt, Papworth, 1996 CT1A/1066 – NBC overboots, Oct 1996 CT1A/1067 – NBC overboots, Nov 1996 CT1A/1067 – NBC overboots, Acton, Jun 1997 CT1A/1157 – gaiters GS, 1997 CT34B/1154 – NBC smock, Remploy, packed Feb 1997 CT34B/1154 – NBC trousers, Remploy, packed Sept 1997 ST1A/1197 – NBC inner gloves, Nov 99, Feb 2000 CT1A/1103 – NBC gloves, Mar 2000 ST1A/1292 – NBC suit, Remploy, packed Jan 2000; June 2001; Mar 2003 ST1A/1456 – NBC gloves, Feb 2001 ST1A/1467 – parachute helmet, 2001 OC2a/1593 – desert windproof smock, Supercraft (Europe) Ltd, 2002 OC2a/1614 – desert helmet cover, Supercraft (Europe) Ltd, 2003 OC2/1534 – vest CS95, 2003 ST1A/1478 – NBC gloves, 2003 DC1bESL/0010 - desert windproof smock, Armour Products, 2003 DC1aESL/0052 – NBC trousers, Remploy, Sept 2003 CC2/1567 – roll mat, AP Ltd, 2004 DC1aESL/0014 – Mk6 helmet, 2004 DC1aESL/0118 – NBC overboots, Silvertown UK Ltd, Dec 2004 DC1aESL/0156 – PLCE belt, 2004 DC1a/ESL/0127 – NBC smock, Remploy, 2005 DC1a/ESL/0151 – rucksack cover, 2005 DC1a/ESL/0237 – NBC suit, Remploy, Jan 2006 DC2CESL/3129 – desert windproof smock, Cooneen Watts & Stone, 2006 DC1BESL/6004 – gloves, combat, 2006 DC4BESL/1000 – sleeping bag cover, 2006 CC2/1567 – roll mat, AP Ltd, 2007 DC2CESL/3154 – small pouch cover, 2007 DC1BESL/6007 – combat gloves, 2007 DC1aESL/0369 – gaiters, 2007 DC1aESL/0391 – desert sheet, J & S Franklin, 2008, 2009 DC2BESL/1000 - sleeping bag cover, 2009 DC2CESL/3154 – rucksack covers, 2007, 2008, 2009 DC2CESL/3129 – windproof smock, CW&S, 2009 DC2CESL/3129 – desert helmet cover, Cooneen Watts & Stone, 2010 DC1A/1043 – Arctic sleeping bag, 2010 DC2B12514 – vest, 2010 Thank you Edward53 for this post... as a collector, this will come in extremely useful... it's the most concise explanation of contract numbers I've ever seen... well done that man! 😄 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spartan006 Posted November 17, 2021 Share Posted November 17, 2021 I have an Air Force Warrant Officer coat, size 4 made by Edgard & Sons ltd. Never been able to date it but from this list my best guess is 60s as the label is faded but 78/CLO is still visible on it. I have an image of it too idk if it would be helpful Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spartan006 Posted November 20, 2021 Share Posted November 20, 2021 On 11/17/2021 at 8:30 AM, Spartan006 said: I have an Air Force Warrant Officer coat, size 4 made by Edgard & Sons ltd. Never been able to date it but from this list my best guess is 60s as the label is faded but 78/CLO is still visible on it. I have an image of it too idk if it would be helpful Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon93 Posted May 9, 2022 Share Posted May 9, 2022 Hi all, What an interesting thread, which I have now bookmarked! I have a few more current items with new contract codes, which I can help add to the list. They are all the same garment: 'Gloves, Contact Combat (Aramid)' Contract no. DC/04048 dated 2015. Contract no. LSL/DC/0032 Dated 2018. Contract no. LSL/DC/0078 dated September 2020. I have some post 2015 dated 'odds and sods' somewhere, I'll have to dig them out and add the contract numbers if I can. Best regards, Simon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrian Dwyer Posted September 13, 2023 Share Posted September 13, 2023 Morning all. As has been noted, this is such a useful piece of work (much used by those treading the wary path through ebay sellers). I know Edward has achieved his aim but I thought the following images might be interesting as they give dates. NI combat glove dated 1984 Braces, dated 1980 Both sides of the folded tag on helmet 'sock', dated 1983 Anti-mine goggles case , dated 1973 All the very best and, once again, many thanks to Edward for the original legwork! A 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrian Dwyer Posted October 22, 2023 Share Posted October 22, 2023 Comprehensive! These were issued to me - training purposes, not mob stock - in 1982. A Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Forestfemme Posted October 24, 2023 Share Posted October 24, 2023 I have just got some “Trousers, Foul Weather OD” CH 8415-99-135-7765 SL31b/2675 James North & Sons Ltd. Looks like they would be from the 1980s. Any idea of the exact year? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrian Dwyer Posted November 1, 2023 Share Posted November 1, 2023 Morning - the contract would have been mid to late 80s. If you look at page one of this thread, Edward53's original list shows the following: SL31b/2877 – OD foul weather jacket, Mileta Sports Ltd, 1987 So, I'd say 1986? All the best. A Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrian Dwyer Posted January 8 Share Posted January 8 A senior service item - and I suspect the Ryal Navy does things differently - but does anyone know how to work out the date of these flying covies? Contract number - A66A/2241. I'm thinking not before the 80s and not far into the 2000s? But what do I know! All the best. A Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrian Dwyer Posted January 9 Share Posted January 9 (edited) Flight Coveralls. Yes, I know this is niche but following extensive research - alright, a quick google using the search term Mk14A flight coveralls - I can present my initial findings (these run to the backs of two cigarette packets). number only 1612 - no manufacturer shown dated 1977 (stores ref 22c/1300198) number only 2078 - manufacturer nk but Mk14 covies - dated January 1980 A66A/2241 - 'Lifeguard' MK14A covies. Shown above: serious age-related wear; seem to have come from HMS Illustrious A66A/2980 - Beaufort covies - dated 1984 A66A/3678 - 'Lifeguard' covies dated 1987 A66A/3897 - Beaufort covies dated 1987 A66A/4180 - RFD covies dated 1988 (December) A66A/4283 - 'Lifeguard' covies dated 1989 A66A/4468 - 'Lifeguard' covies (14A and 15) dated 1991 SMC11CR/6019 - Ballyclare covies dated 1996-98 SMC11CR/6320 - Mk15T covies dated Dec 1999 SADC/6461 - Ballyclare covies dated 2006 So, having little knowledge of contract lore, but looking at the sequence of numbers, is it reasonable to assume that A66A/2241 must pre-date A66A/2980? If so, is it possible to date the contract number? Standing by! Edited June 25 by Adrian Dwyer additional data 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrian Dwyer Posted January 11 Share Posted January 11 On 1/9/2024 at 5:58 PM, Adrian Dwyer said: Flight Coveralls. Yes, I know this is niche but following extensive research - alright, a quick google using the search term Mk14A flight coveralls - I can present my initial findings (these run to the backs of two cigarette packets). A66A/2241 - 'Lifeguard' covies. Shown above: serious age-related wear; seem to have come from HMS Illustrious A66A/2980 - Beaufort covies - dated 1984 A66A/3678 - 'Lifeguard' covies dated 1987 A66A/3897 - Beaufort covies dated 1987 A66A/4283 - 'Lifeguard' covies dated 1989 A66A/4468 - 'Lifeguard' covies dated 1991 SMC11CR/6019 - Ballyclare covies dated 1996-98 SADC/6461 - Ballyclare covies dated 2006 So, having little knowledge of contract lore, but looking at the sequence of numbers, is it reasonable to assume that A66A/2241 must pre-date A66A/2980? If so, is it possible to date the contract number? Standing by! The scabbard for the MkIII knife on the A66A/2241 covies seems to be dated 1981, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fv1609 Posted January 15 Share Posted January 15 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrian Dwyer Posted January 15 Share Posted January 15 On 1/11/2024 at 7:59 PM, Adrian Dwyer said: The scabbard for the MkIII knife on the A66A/2241 covies seems to be dated 1981, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrian Dwyer Posted January 15 Share Posted January 15 25 minutes ago, fv1609 said: An example from Edward's original list: 'DC2CESL/3129 – desert windproof smock, Cooneen Watts & Stone, 2006' Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrian Dwyer Posted January 31 Share Posted January 31 (edited) I think this is quite an early version of the cutter pouch. Contract number SURV/416. The date of manufacture is given as 05/10. Flying kit stores reference. Later version - but undated - also shown. Edited February 1 by Adrian Dwyer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrian Dwyer Posted May 16 Share Posted May 16 Mk14A flying covies I am hoping the contract number shown below (2273) - albeit from flying trousers not covies - helps establish the covies shown above (from HMS Illustrious: A66A/2241), are pre-'82. Any thoughts? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrian Dwyer Posted June 25 Share Posted June 25 Very helpful label. It looks like RAF contract number formats changed shortly after Jan '80. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ian bradshaw Posted August 2 Share Posted August 2 Anyone any idea of a rough date for the following? Jacket, Bush, Man's R.A.F, OA Briggs, Jones & Gibson Ltd A/78/CLO/37725/DC 68(1) Cheers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrian Dwyer Posted August 9 Share Posted August 9 On 8/2/2024 at 4:23 PM, ian bradshaw said: Anyone any idea of a rough date for the following? Jacket, Bush, Man's R.A.F, OA Briggs, Jones & Gibson Ltd A/78/CLO/37725/DC 68(1) Cheers Morning Ian - if you take a look at the data on the first page, it looks to be around 1971. All the best. A Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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