layfin Posted November 18, 2012 Share Posted November 18, 2012 Hi All. I have completely restored a 1984 109 FFR 24 volt. However I have a few problems. The engine was running fine when I started the job. The engine will now turn over no problem but it will not start. I have no Ignition Light, Wipers or Heater Fan. All the lights inc Indicators are working fine. I would appreciate any help. Regards. Chris. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony B Posted November 18, 2012 Share Posted November 18, 2012 Welcome along. I'd start by checking all the wiring at the ignition switch. Are you getting a spark? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
private mw Posted November 18, 2012 Share Posted November 18, 2012 hi welcome to the forum , Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fv1609 Posted November 18, 2012 Share Posted November 18, 2012 Chris welcome. Just trying to form a picture of the problem from the circuit diagram. Do the oil pressure, cold start & brake warning test button lights work? These share a common link to the ignition warning light at the fuse box. Although none of these services are actually fused. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
layfin Posted November 18, 2012 Author Share Posted November 18, 2012 Thanks for your suggestions. Will test for spark tomorrow. Temp guage and Oil Light not working even if I short the wire to the body. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fv1609 Posted November 18, 2012 Share Posted November 18, 2012 The chances are you won't get a spark as the ignition LT is drawn from the junction of all those items that don't work. Its easy to undo the 4 screws on the ignition filter. Put a voltmeter or bulb test probe & see if the feed from a white wire coming from the ignition is live (obviously with the ignition on). If nothing then examine the 4-way fuse holder. Not to investigate the fuses but at the live side of fuses 3 & 4 are joined together. This is the feed point that seems defective. You should find 5 white leads & a brown lead. Follow the brown lead to pin 2 of the ignition switch. While you are there check pin 4 which is a brown with orange trace wire that feeds through an in-line fuse which is solely for the heater motor. As you can run the starter, pin 1 should be live all the time. This is a brown wire that goes to the live end of fuse 1. Here it joins another brown wire that is fed from the shunt box & another brown wire feeding the red socket of the dash power sockets. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony B Posted November 18, 2012 Share Posted November 18, 2012 Easy when you have the circuit diagram. A cheap 12 volt buzzer, about £2.30 is an ideal way to check power, especially if youre checking continuity of a long wire. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fv1609 Posted November 18, 2012 Share Posted November 18, 2012 Easy when you have the circuit diagram. A cheap 12 volt buzzer, about £2.30 is an ideal way to check power A bulb is even cheaper :-D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welshbayonetww2 Posted November 18, 2012 Share Posted November 18, 2012 be careful. I was chasing an electrical fault on my misses 77' 109FFR. managed to pull the wires on the back of the ammeter off as i was testing circuits. Damn thing shorted and I couldn't isolate the batteries quick enough. 24V packs a wallop. Now i've got to trace the damage into the shielded cable:red: What wiring diagram are you using? if its for a lightweight, be carefull they are not quite the same. I have found one , if you need it. Doug Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
layfin Posted November 19, 2012 Author Share Posted November 19, 2012 It is not a Light Weight. I would appreciate a Diagram for referance. I will try the other suggestions tomorrow. Many thanks for all the replies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fv1609 Posted November 19, 2012 Share Posted November 19, 2012 (edited) Here you go: Edited November 19, 2012 by fv1609 Split into 2 images for better detail Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shane.c Posted November 19, 2012 Share Posted November 19, 2012 Welcome to HMVF,:-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
layfin Posted November 19, 2012 Author Share Posted November 19, 2012 Hi All. I checked the white wire in the Filter Unit and got 25 volts. I also have 25v at the 2nd Fuse and all other fuses as well.I also have voltage at the Ignition Switch and the 6 way switch. I have Oil Pressure Light. The water temp and oil temp guages are working. The wipers or the heater motor dont work. I have no ignition light and no spark at the plugs. All lights and indicators are working. There is, what looks like a large fuse with GES (I think) stamped on it, in the Shunt Box. Should I get contunity accross this. Appreciate your assistance so far. Regards. Chris. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fv1609 Posted November 19, 2012 Share Posted November 19, 2012 Chris don't bother about that big fuse at moment it just protects the radio battery supply. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fv1609 Posted November 19, 2012 Share Posted November 19, 2012 Chris the wipers & washer have their own private fuse which is 2nd or 3rd one depending which way you look at it. With 3 white leads in & one green lead out. Again the heater has a private fuse which is in line via brown with orange trace to the ignition switch & the other end of the fuse to the heater switch. Good that you get 25v to ignition filter input. Put the test prod on the centre of the screened cable just before it leaves the filter box. You should get 9-10v if the points are closed. You should get 25v if the CB points are open. Take the top off the distributor off & inspect the points. If they are open then switch them closed by carefully using a screwdriver blade to short the points to each other. The voltage should go down to 9-10v as the coil draws current & causes a voltage drop across the ballast resistor in the ignition box. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
layfin Posted November 21, 2012 Author Share Posted November 21, 2012 Hi All. I seem to have got my Forums crossed somehow. please forgive me. Just getting used to them. I carried out the tests suggested and I have 24v at the screeded cable coming out of the Filter Unit. This does not change when I open or close the points. Sorry if I have confused the issue using both forums. Regards. Chris. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fv1609 Posted November 21, 2012 Share Posted November 21, 2012 For those following the thread this is what I posted on the other forum. "So that means you either have a burnt out primary in the coil or defective leads or the small lead at the points or the points have burnt out or badly adjusted. See if you can measure 24v at the live side of the points then that means coil & leads are ok. With ignition off see with an ohmmeter if the points complete a circuit when they are meant to be closed. Also check the earthy side of the points does really contact earth. Check the continuity of the live side of points that it connects to centre of lead when you unscrew it from CB terminal of coil." So Chris how did you get on with that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
layfin Posted November 21, 2012 Author Share Posted November 21, 2012 Again many thanks. I will try that tonight and let you know later. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
layfin Posted November 22, 2012 Author Share Posted November 22, 2012 I am getting 24v at the Points. The rest is a bit confusing for an amator like my self, however I will give it a try tonight. I removed the base plate for the Points and Condensor and noticed that the brown insulation underneath is cracked right accross. Could this cause a problem. Regards. Chris. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fv1609 Posted November 22, 2012 Share Posted November 22, 2012 Chris, at this stage I won't worry about the crack in the insulation. If it was causing a problem it would be causing a short circuit across the points & you would be reading 0v at the live side of the points. As you are getting 24v at the points the only conclusion is that the points are not closed. So short them with a screw driver. ie put the blade of the screwdriver from the live side to the base plate. The voltage at the output from the filter box should now drop to 9v or so. When you release the screwdriver there will be a slight spark at the screwdriver. Mind your fingers this will be 300v or so back EMF from the primary of the coil. If that appears ok, check what gap there is at the points. If they are meant to be closed & aren't then adjust the gap with the points open & "dress" them if one point is pitted & the opposite point bumpy. You may find it helpful to dismount the distributor & rotate the shaft with your fingers to see & measure what is happening. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
layfin Posted November 23, 2012 Author Share Posted November 23, 2012 Hi Clive. I am thrilled to report that the 109 started first turn and is running like a clock. However she will still need some fine tuning, Carb and Timing. I cant thank you enough and would like to reward you personally in some way or contribute something to the HMVA. Please let me know. Can I set the Ignition Timing in the usual way with a 12v Strope light. There are still a few issues with the Electrics to sort out, but I am going to leave them for the moment and get the rest of the Brakes,Clutch and Bodywork,etc completed next. I hope you wont mind if I come back to annoy you again then. Again I cant thank you enough for all your help. Very best regards. Chris. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fv1609 Posted November 23, 2012 Share Posted November 23, 2012 Chris that is excellent news. Well done for sticking with it. It is very kind of you to offer but it is sufficient reward to know that it worked out for you and be told the outcome. I much prefer to do these discussions in public then others can get a few pointers who might be faced with the same problem. PMs & emails can't be shared & are much more likely to fizzle out either because the questioner lost interest or perhaps I solved the problem but never heard any more. As it happens I have been writing an article on the FFR Rover ignition system for some 2 years. Talking someone through it helps me crystalise how best to suggests tests in situ. I don't know if you have seen the All Charged Up article. The final version was greatly influenced by a series of problems that were discussed in the open, so it does help me. As for timing bear in mind the fuel used when these vehicles were set up in service is quite different from the stuff that we get these days. I just timing it to give best smooth running which may not necessarily be fasted revs. Maing adjustments slowly & waiting a little to observe the change before adjusting further. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony B Posted November 24, 2012 Share Posted November 24, 2012 (edited) Hi Clive. I am thrilled to report that the 109 started first turn and is running like a clock. However she will still need some fine tuning, Carb and Timing. I cant thank you enough and would like to reward you personally in some way or contribute something to the HMVA. Please let me know. Can I set the Ignition Timing in the usual way with a 12v Strope light. There are still a few issues with the Electrics to sort out, but I am going to leave them for the moment and get the rest of the Brakes,Clutch and Bodywork,etc completed next. I hope you wont mind if I come back to annoy you again then. Again I cant thank you enough for all your help. Very best regards. Chris. Yes, depending on the type of timing light you have. If it is a digital type, conect the lamp to a seperate 12 volt battery. Add a strap from the earth of the seperate battery to the chassis of the vehicle, then connect induction lead to number one lead. The beauty of this type is that once you have marked the timing points, the strobe will allow you to set the timing you want, then just move dizzy till they line up. I have a MAC timing light (Expensive but easy to use) I've used it on 6-12 and 24 volt vehicles no problem. Edited November 24, 2012 by Tony B Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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