LarryH57

Thanks Ted, I know that Black front mudguards are shown in photos taken at RAF Cardington mostly on Fordson Sussex Balloon Winches and a Ford Van (and the RAF Northolt Crash Tender above) but I have not seen any on a Tender. BTW has that 1937 AMO got a number or reference? As always thanks for your input

Get well soon Bryan! If I get a chance I'd like to come to RAFM to see the archives Regards Larry

Bryan, Have a look at this for example from 1940. I have much better photos, that for the moment I cannot post here. I agree its not common to see black mudguards but the idea must have originated pre-war. At the moment my research shows Fordsons painted like this, with both balloon winch versions and the crash tender types having gloss black mudguards. But I have also seen a pre-war Ford Van like this too. The Fordson in photos on page 1 of this thread supports this too. I agree it was not common place and clearly black mudguards in the blackout did not help hence the added white over them to varying designs. So any clues as to why it was allowed?

Believe it or not after a few years of trying on and off I found the Archive this afternoon. The only problem was they have not uploaded the film I want but I have emailed to request it The Archive is called MACE and has a great selection of films so have a search through. It is amazing what is on film archive and online too. http://www.macearchive.org/mace-themes

A bit of a wild card question, but I'm trying to find out if ATV Midland films have an archive, and the contact details for them. In September 1974 ATV Midlands filmed a day in the lift of 115 Sqn at RAF Cottesmore, over a two day period. The film was broadcast on TV on 12th September 1974 and I would like to get a copy as my father was a pilot with the Sqn at the time.

Thanks Bryan but black mudguards are seen on pre-war RAF vehicles in some of the photos I have posted here, and of course the RAF Ford Sussex Balloon winch you had on display in RAFM is a perfect example

A quick question; Going back a bit to the time of RAF Blue Grey as the base colour were mudguards painted gloss black at the start, or did they come later?

Have you inspected the engine for other cracks first, such as above and below the distributor, in addition to what you might find under the cylinder head. I only mention this in case even more work needs doing that could be repaired at the same time by a specialist.

Sadly my grandfather was one of those conscripted, when he was the only bread winner for a home full of kids. He lasted 6 months in the Wilts Regt, and was shot in the neck in 1917 on the Western Front. He lingered on for another 19 years and died in 1936 of his war related injuries aged 45. His widow my grandmother was told she wasn't entitled to a war widows pension!

I suppose the 'intent' of the Lincoln Council of the local Police could be tested by substituting the Mark IV with a WW1 vintage truck and or a colum of reenactors deressed as Tommies, to see what other objections there might be!

'Finished in T Corbin'? Is that your way of saying the nearest match to the official SCC.2 brown. And BTW Tony, we have met many years ago; I remember saying to you how nice your Fordson WOT 1 Crash Tender was and that it was a rare vehicle even then! I said "Have you seen the other Fordson WOT 1 GS that was on the show scene?" and you said "Yes its mine" which made me laugh. But where is that vehicle now I have not seen it for years?

Tony, I can understand why it was red in 1950's but during your restoration, did you find proof that it was SCC.2 as the base colour, as it appears now. What year was it built?

I wonder if the Crash Tender in front of the Dodge is green or brown or even US OD? The photo was taken at Halesworth

Tony, So I'm reliably informed all USAAF bases in the UK were in fact still RAF Stations and on 'loan' to the USAAF, so there was an RAF Officer nominally in charge usually of the rank of Sqn Leader or above. As mentioned above British kit in USAAF service was quite normal even an Austin K2.

Oh yes Bryan I missed off Hillman, which is strange as I was working on one for a friend not so long ago! As for my suggestion that the RAF never had Austin Tillies (nor Austin K2 Ambulances in the UK during WW2) would the RAFM be able to confirm these 'facts' from their records?

The scourge of many airfield museums around the country - a well detailed 1/48th scale model aircraft surrounded by RAF Blue vehicles such as the Austin Tilly, which reputedly was never issued to the RAF, as they used Morris and Standard Tillies

Baz48, Your comments are very useful, in relation to vehicles that have been repainted, and if I understand you correctly MV owners cannot trust the colours they find under layers of paint as they may have either been 'watered down' versions of official colours or may have been faded colours that were covered up with more paint. I suggest the only true colours to trust are those applied on the production line as a manufacturer isn't going to allow such wild variations as you would find in field workshops, and presumably like aircraft production there would have been a man from the ministry to ensure SCC.2 was near as dam it the same on a Bedford as on an Austin. Also there is a difference between vehicles camouflaged in a hurry for an overseas campaign and vehicles retained on home stations, where supplies of paint to workshops would not be so fraught as say supplies shipped to the Med and at risk of U-Boat attack. Incidentally my aim is to try to get a reasonable chronological order of RAF Camo colours hopefully by finding the AM orders to give a reasonable time frame of such changes.

Thanks all for your replies; I guess Tony your vehicle was converted at a time when RAF camo was yet to be formalised, so I suggest pre-1941. Is that the likely time for the conversion?

The lime green on Tony's Fordson; was it an official colour or just something available when the vehicle was converted to a Trucktor in WW2?

Going back a few pages, can anyone suggest a colour match or description for the lime green used on Tony Corbin's Fordson Trucktor that he restored using previously covered colours as a guide?

79x100 Many thanks for posting. Regarding the reference after Khaki Green No 3, does anyone know anything more about 'WD Specification MC205'? Is there any mileage in researching it regarding RAF camo?

Is anyone going to Pickering War Weekend this weekend 13th to 15th October 2017? Hopefully there will be an MV show in the showground this year?

Ted, Its great to be back! Anyway back to my question; Was MTP46 actually for the RAF or is it the Army Camo instructions that we all assume were adopted by the RAF. Well you suggest not, so where do I start if I was to go to the NA in Kew to find an AMO or similar that says "OK chaps, just follow the Army instructions" next time you paint a vehicle? But then again if the RAF ordered a vehicle that was built on a line in a factory they would just have had to accept it in whatever colour it was in, so I might be looking for an order NOT to repaint vehicles? Obviously the above refers to wartime production and not the elusive AMO that requested RAF Blue be overpainted. I live in NW London so I'd love to go digging in Kew but as a complete novice at TNA I'd need something to look for, reference wise.

Guys thanks for your contributions so far; I think we are making some progress but playing devils advocate, where is the proof that the War Office Pamphlets that have been attached were for the RAF? I appreciate that if wartime manufacturers produced an order for a type of vehicle, that it would not have been practical to paint a few specially for the RAF if the majority were for the Army, so I can see the logic in the RAF following the War Office instructions, which is true once the war really got going. However its the period 1939-40 that is less certain and in need of some AMOs.

Bryan & Ted, Many thanks for the above. Is it more likely then that the AMOs will be in the TNA rather than RAF Museum? There would have been orders locked away for the station Commanders to open on the declaration of war, so what happened to them. I would have thought they were comparable for each RAF station within Bomber Command or Fighter Command with a few local variations, concernbing the colours and camo schemes. Seeing as aircraft received camo during the Munich Crisis and dispersal plans were put in place for Sqn in the East of england to re-locate to the west, it amazes me that the RAF vehicles didn't get the cam treatment at the same time. Ted may I have the link to that film taken at aldergrove?