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A Size 8 "BMC" made green 60s 1963 patt "SAS" smock finished on Ebay this morning at £88........well used looking at the pics, a few repairs, but the real deal...........

I didn't bid...........odd, when I'm seeking one for the collection, but having my new size 4 trousers, perhaps I'm holding out for something better to came along....? (it invariably will if you're patient)...........:undecided:

It wasn't the price either (I would have paid more)....just wasn't inclined to bid for a change..........anyone on here see it / win it....????

Maker's names seem to have filtered out on issue clothing around the mid-90s.......it coincided with changes in the MoD contracting process where tenders were offered outside the UK to manufacturer kit and was possibly done for "political" reasons to avoid upsetting users.......?

I'd agree....ex-AAC/RAF aircrew..........probably a better item at the time than the MK2/MK2A DPM aircrew trousers that are heavy and cumbersome, unlike the jacket that is actually rather good and has lasted in service for over 40 years now in DPM !!!!

This looks like a 'third pattern' Denison to me introduced in the early 1950s. The 1944 'second pattern' didn't have the woolen cuffs.

Correct Jason, woollen cuffs reintroduced in a 1952 specification (from 53 onwards).......tab cuff then disappeared......

Lovely Harry !!!! I have two of these, MINT, both Size 2, same manufacturer, contract and era (early 70s manufacture)......

Peculiar label position on this one....the manufacturing specs state it was to be positioned in the lower-right front behind the pocket................and, NO NSN on the label !!!!! I'm wondering if this is either a commercial or foreign-contract (South African ?) example....??? (as also noted in the film "The Wild Geese" and worn by the "Simbas"...!!!!!

The other numbers quoted are the pattern reference (specification) for this model of Denison, issued in '65 and modified by "3181B" for MoD production in '68....the other number is likely to be a contract or order number, but not like other UK numbers of the era..............Fryer were a UK MoD contractor though.........

Was told many moons ago that sometime late 40s a new style was introduced unofficially called the 1946 pattern which was basically a 2nd Pattern WW2 type but with the button cuff replaced with a knit cuff??

I have all the War Office specs Harry....no "46 pattern".........the 2nd WW2 pattern with the "tab" cuff continued until revised specs were issued in 53 reverting to the knit-cuffs............the "tab" type has wider arms and a shorter sleeve length, detailed in the manufacturing specifications so easy to identify the various patterns (at least for me with the doc's to hand ! )

Anybody please got an idiots guide as to what the differences are between a 1946 and 1959 pattern Denison(say for example the smock/s are missing their labels) are as have seen a few early 1959 patts in a WW2 type camo print??

There are two definitive wartime styles of Denisons........the original 1942 issue which has knit cuffs, a one piece front and back (no centre seam) and no means of securing the crutch flap to the rear of the smock........many of these were made in an almost hand-painted cammo fabric......the other style came in around late-1943 and is defined by the seamed front and rear panel, wider sleeves with no knitted cuffs and secured by tabs with three sets of buttons......the crutch flap has provision for securing at the back and the cammo print is often (not always) more defined and roller/screen-printed.......

There are some mixes of both the above, some later pattern smocks still having the seamless front and rear, etc, just simple manufacturing variations........

The 2nd wartime style lasted until 1952 when revised specs were issued..........the main change was a reversion to the knit cuffs and a reduction in the width of the lower sleeve..........some smocks by this time featured zinc-plated studs to resist corrosion......smocks made between 1946 and 1953 are essentially the same as the later wartime model in style and colour....

1960 saw the 1959 pattern smock introduced that was similar to the 52 model but now featured a full zip front.......labels generally now state "Smock Denison 1959 Pattern", the "Airborne Troops" bit rarely seen thereafter........

1962 onwards saw the cammo print get bolder in colour and pattern......

1968 saw the "Smock Camouflage" take over from the 1959 pattern but it was essentially the same item.......no reference on the label anymore to "Denison" or "Airborne Troops"........

1975-76 - last Denisons made........

1977 - DPM para smock introduced..........

I think it's a post-war 1959 pattern Denison Harry.......the cammo pattern is typical of some early 59 patterns made in the early 1960s.........but it has been "converted" back to the pre-59 pullover style..........the label, interestingly, carries the manufacturer "BMC" (not sure who they were) but were common manufacturers of Denisons and windproofs in the 60s rather than the 50s.....the label too, doesn't carry the "1959 pattern" designation either, using the earlier description, although the absence of "1959 pattern" is uncommon but not unknown..........

The plain brass snaps are unusual too for the 60s, they were mainly zinc-plated by this time......although my "trial" 66 dated DPM smock still has brass snaps fitted........

The other possibility is that this is a 1950s production (post-52) with the knitted cuffs specified from then-onwards......it may have been a pullover style originally but was at some point converted to a full-zip and then converted back to the original spec again.......the pullover style lasted until the 1959 pattern came in around 1960...........

Nice smock though !!

Wonderful Martyn ! Am I now the only person without one of these ???:undecided: Essentially the original 1951 combat smock, in gabardine, with attached hood and made to Air Ministry contract (number on the label)....nice find !

The "Dangerous Brian" DPM Arctic Hat came out around 76 along with the arctic windproofs and "Chinese fighting suit".........the original pattern was in gabardine DPM, quilt-lined, and likely with brown-KF flannel lined flaps..........sticky labels were fairly common too.......

Post-Falklands, probably late-80s, some labels were now cloth and sewn-in........the pile lining seems to have replaced the quilting around the late-80s/early 90s, and the inner flaps were generally the common green KF flannel.....

Some issues from probably 94 onwards were made in DPM "ripstop" as used in the CS95 field jacket.............

Not certain about the differences in peak sizes.......it could just be a manufacturing variation, but the arctic hat I was issued with in 83 definitely had a huge peak and was quilt-lined......

They were not made in normal head sizes either, only "small, medium" and "large"........

Love this pattern,lucky to own a shirt,trs and body armour cover.

 

Was there a helmet cover and bush hat made in this particular pattern?

I've never actually looked for it Harry, but I should imagine there was. I haven't really collected the desert gear in the past, but am now thinking that it might be a good idea whilst still fairly easy to acquire......

Not especially rare, even though now about 21 years old and becoming scarce, but a 1st pattern GW1 British Army Lightweight Combat Jacket in the rare variant "sparse pattern" desert DPM cammo.....a wider, lesser print...........this is nothing other than a variant, no doubt due to the rush in '91 to get this stuff manufactured and issued, but is none-the-less seldom encountered nowadays..........

The first pattern desert DPM's were based on the tropical combats of the time, the jacket being almost identical, but the trousers had differences, lacking the rear hip patch pocket of the jungle issue plus the button facility for the fly.......the fabric too, was all-cotton (for comfort) rather than the poly-cotton of the jungle pattern............later issues were in the aertex "teabag" fabric, prior to replacement by desert combats of the CS95 pattern...........

The DPM 60 smock, well washed and worn, shows the typical fading and stark colour appearance characteristic of the early DPM printed on satin-backed cotton-drill of the time.........I like 'em like this......:-D

90's issue windproof smock............the August 86 MoD QM list states that the "SAS" version of the windproof smock (and trousers) - the rank tab-less, non-wired hood version - "SAS - not for general issue".............so, whilst the old WW2, 50s, 63 patterns, etc, WERE "general issue" items for all when required, not actually "SAS" garments, it seems the later smock and trousers, introduced from 75-76 onwards, WERE actually specific SAS garments according to the QM lists.................however, the similar arctic windproofs were a general issue item for specific usage by all..........

Try Sabre Sales in Southsea....they had tons of British, Greek and Dutch BD........

The original G3/L rack was adapted from the G3 version with the legs altered and re-welded to accommodate the pillion seat....when introduced, pannier fittings were not then standard.........later racks simply had the pannier frame top attachment lugs welded onto the rack-sides..........

Nice example Jason......mid-late 70s issue on account of the pre-metric sizing !!

You are just whetting our appetities for your book now Steve...

Thanks Jason....you flatter me...! All will be revealed soon.........(I hope !!!)....

If this is the sort of detail you are putting into the book mate, I cant wait for it!!

 

Mark

Be patient Mark....it will come (better quality images tho !!!)....and thanks !!! :-D

KF shirt label details.....at the top is the 1951 pattern (1952 dated) KF shirt label, next one down is the 72-onwards 1968 pattern green combat shirt label, third down is the original 68 pattern 1970-72 khaki-version combat shirt label and the final one is a close-up of the khaki 1964 pattern shirt label.........enjoy !!!!!

British Army KF shirts...a short history............the collarless type top-row on the right is the pre and WW2 issue shirt.......khaki flannel, very generously cut, no pockets or epaulettes, "pullover" style with small metal buttons in zinc or gunmetal........this example is (unusually) dated 1940 and is large and MINT....they weren't generally dated at this point.........late issues from 43-44 can have plastic buttons......

The one next to it (top-row left) is the 1944-onwards issue with an attached collar....same style but all plastic buttons....made post-war, this example was made in 1948....MINT and a large size again.............

Next row on the left shows the "1951 pattern" Korean-issue shirt (issued from 52 onwards).......similar cut to the WW2 issue but with epaulettes, pleated pockets (the left one incorporating a small pencil pocket) and attached collar.....this having small pockets at the front to insert stiffeners for "best dress".....made in sizes up to 8, this one is still very generous and MINT...note also that the lower-front tails incorporate a "wrap-over" style with an additional button to secure, part of the Korean cold-weather insulation programme...........next to this is the "1964 pattern"...issued on a maintenance basis from 65 onwards, this is similar to the 51 issue but of reduced cut and now featuring a "stiffened" collar..........note the change to "civvy" shirt collar sizing............

Bottom row left shows the 1968 pattern "Shirt Mans Combat" in khaki, introduced between 1970 and 71..........reduced cut again, similar to the 64 pattern but now without tails, pleats on the pockets, the internal pencil pocket eliminated and the soft collar reintroduced....made in sizes "0" to "3"..........civvy sizes gone again !!! On the right is the 1972-onwards combat shirt now produced in GREEN hairy flannel, replacing the khaki version that was only in production for a year or so..............and these served on to the mid-80s until KF finally replaced by the poly-cotton "GS" shirt......although some hardy veterans retained the KF shirt into the 90s...........

As with all WD/MoD kit, older stocks and patterns remained on issue and in use until worn out or stocks exhausted........

Enjoy !!!!

Hmmm - absolutely no insult intended Mark but beware of what you might expect from a 1950s size 'Large'.

 

A 1950s large seems to be a bit different from a 2013 large...at 6'2" and 'cough' stone I cannot even hope to fit into a 1950s large:cool2:

You and me both Jason !!!!!!!

I would agree......"small" being a compromise between the Army stock sizes of 1 - 3, "medium" being 4 - 6, etc..........:-D Knowing the ROC, the commonest size would most likely have been "large".......:cool2:

They were prolific uniform makers Jason, later being part of the Compton-Webb concern (who had a large factory next to Swindon railway works for uniform manufacture !)......I strongly suspect that this garment was for railway company, post-office or similar...............