steveo578

I may be off track here as I am working from paper references which is not the best method but it could be diferent in an OT90 I would imagine that later BMPs may have higher fuel capacity because of the Afghan war. I've got 60lts in left door and 70lts in right door (no gun port) hence my calculation for loss of range and a total internal fuel stowage of 460lts which I calcuated included doors (integral fuel stowage-rather than additional) from Janes Armour Artillery reference, which I think was a referenced to Finnish BMP1s, but could of course be wrong. however it is noted as max road range 500km fuel capacity 460lts. whereas the tanks with additional fuel cells are differentiated as for example T64 460km on integral tanks and 700km with long range tanks. Obviously further research into capacity is necessary. Steve

Now now Eddy, remember "don't ask don't tell" policy:-D Steve

If it was recovered from pirbright, at or about the time the Rams and Grant was recovered, then it is just about possible that the A10 was put back. Without a A9-A10 A13 turret completing this as a restoration would be difficult, however as the turret is largely fairly thin flat plate, apart for the mantlet. it's not impossible although the racer ring would be almost impossible to find.. Steve

There's a P4 H probably part of the Lesayn Czech Rep. Collection at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u-59xudoUHs There are various other stuff shown on this and related sites the T34/85 213 is a post war Cz built model Lesayn have various T34s including a zavod 112 hardedge) and I'm unsure whether the SdKfz 231 6 rad is the real thing, as to the Soviet female soldier definately fake -in need of lots more potatoes.:wow: Steve

Just for fun what do you all think this one is? Steve

seen this site before-I wondered who got my CK waterpump pliers:cheesy: other photos of the same site show various AFVs of historical value including a very early Model 1946 t54 and a T10m, however this is supposed to by part of the Kubinka Polygon so whilst apparently abandoned is very similar to areas owned by MOD in UK that seem abandoned but are in reality still within control of the Army and ending up in a russian jail is a lot worse than anything in the West. Steve

Sorry for the long wait to get back on this, I had to sort out some photos, I think the photos 5 and 6 show that the hatch is egreesable with the turret in the 6 o' clock position whether the same can be said when the turret is at 3 o'clock and 9 o'clock i don't know (especially as the turret is not a regular elispe) but i would think it is possible to escape if necessary, so despite the weakness in the otherwise strong nose section it was a huge improvement over the IS2 and IS2m. I was always under the impression that the BMP rear fuel cells were a deliberate design to make a form of stand off armour against RPG rounds. Most soviet tanks and APCs were capable of a minimum of 400km on internal fuel, but AFAIK no Soviet APC carried auxillary fuel tanks, -I have seen photos of BTR50, which have the lowest range of the soviet APCs, fitted with T54/5 style fuel cells but this was in Israeli service. The BMP 1 had a range of 500km but would have managed only 360km if these door cells had not been designed, as it is the BMP rear end -squad compartment is almost a fuel cell with space for men!! Steve

Looks like the daily telegraph doesn't have enough home grown stories to mis report. It doesn't look like a forest to me -it's hard by a railway line with a factory in the background and probably happens regularily without any ending up in the hands of terrorists, despite the protestations of the babuskas there does not seem to be any ammo in the tanks indeed they lack 14.5mm a/a guns so look as though they were properly made safe. It is likely that these tanks are awaiting some form of refurbishment or even perhaps reduction, the good thing is despite D.T. retoric the Russian Government are being responsible (possibly a first!!) by removing these vehicles from the Georgian area , where many of the 3rd rate militia units in the recent conflinct were using T62 and BMP1s. As a youngster in Newcastle I with friends regularly played on early Chieftains -refurbished Cents and Abbotts on transporters awaiting drivers for their long run south, I'm surprised the D.T. weren't ranting about these -as to irresponsiblity the 'missing' drivers were in Scotswood Road pubs loading up on beer and pies for the journey. Steve

Automotively the A10 was very similar to the Valentine having the same Vickers slow motion (bright idea!) suspession and was otherwise fairly thin riveted armour. There was a verson of A10 which was classed as uparoured (mainly the front plate and mantlet) which had a closed hull up MG mount as in the photo- I was under the impression that the Pribright stuff at Budge was dispossed of by the MOD when Budge had financial problem in 1996- still probably was scrapped though. Steve

So would the no 41 Mk2 be correct for an spg as opposed to a tank?

Hi Eddy according to Shaddock srviving panzers parts pdf the back end of the King Tiger at Weatcroft was fouind in Germany, I seen reference elsewhere before and I am use it came out of a scrapyard. The French king-tiger is also mentioned in the same pdf. Steve

It evolved rather than being thought out, but wasn't a good design, the gun mount in particular was very poor in keeping splash, or even the weather and dust out, had it been redesigned with a fighting compartment on the lines of Jagdpanzer 4 or Hetzer it would have been better. One thing that was thought out was the commanders cupola in the G and H which was very similar to that in post war German AFVs. Steve

Fair enough, I'm aware of the back end of a 25pdr but if you look closely at the left hand side there is what looks like a cut out ie the mouth of a QF breach and the size of it, if I had to speculate, looks like a breach ring off an abbot. In addition the carriage and the size of weapon are not really compatable, a 25mk2 carriage (and thats what the m1922 gave to posterity) was hard pushed to retain a 76.2mm x L/55 17pdr. I would go and have a look at it as it is only 15ml from home but at the moment that's not practicable. The local Newcastle science museum has a number of military exhibits including an original Armstrong Bl gun and had- perhaps still has one of the Parsons turbine as fitted to the Conqueror Tank in the 1950s. however I would stand more chance discusing saving the history of Vickers and anything else military if I spoke to the staff in ancient Georgian. The gun assuming I am right in saying it is M1922 (and it is not M1931 as that is the 2nd photo in my earlier post) it is an example of a small scale production for commercial export- ie what kept Elswick in business between the World Wars and has a place in history as the basis for the 25pdr Mk2 carriage, but probably not greatly important. Steve

Fair point, as you say the rims were probably fitted to the steel disc and have been lost, I think the wood could be original and was a backing to the outer disc but not flaired as on the production model. I really doubt some-one would attempt to refurbish, mock up, with wheels in timber c/w the cut outs and then add the strange barrel. What is without a doubt it started out as an M1922 and whether it was used as a trial for such a large length in calibre. I don't know -but I doubt the barrel is original - or shall I say I doubt the extreme length is orignal, a 105mm L/60 -(and i'm guessing at the length) in 1931 would be really revolutionary, thats better than vickers were doing in 1943 with the 8pdr and the Vickers HV 75mm. Steve

Hi Eddy I would think you are right the Jagdpanzer 4 vomag L/70 at Glady may well have been blown up, while looking for the information on the Poznan museum StuG4 I came across a incident that a Tiger 2 was blown up in a stream in France by a scrap man who was then unable to proceed with his spoils (probably because he was in jail I hope!) the wreckage apart for the small bits got buried over time mostly under a road and culvert (so similar to Glady) but sections of the turret have been recovered. There was also a complete churchill AVRE recovered from beneath a road in France, having been pushed into a shell hole after being knocked out, for many years the turret and mortar could be seen in a culvert. it is now a memorial at Normandy. (bet you want to find one like this Eddy) photos Churchill Avre being recovered and what happens if a Pz4 brews up.

two stock photos of Vickers M1922 and M1931 pieces, note the M1922 is almost a match for the NE Air Museum exhibit, looking at the photos posted in #1 possibly the barrel has been replaced with a later unrelated type as a museum exihibit or a section of tube has been added to "improve" the appeal. If the big square thing at the back is the breach ring then the above postulation is almost certainly correct. It is pointless trying to get imformation from BAE on anything historical as the files were for some stupid reason pased to Cambridge University where motivated by profit a single copy will cost an enquirer a minimum of £20 and that assumes the search assisant knows the difference between witworth and metric- unlikely. It would be nice to cosmetically rebuild the little gun however- although finding a suitable breach ring might be a problem- its superficially similar to a 18pdr.

Although the barrel looks way too long it looks otherwise like a Vickers model 1922 105mm L/23cal including the original patteern wheels which have lost the rims, it should have a wheel racer underneath like the 25pdr. Model 1922 were sold to Estonia and Lithuania. The box trial was the pattern for the 25pdr Mk2 carriage. Interesting that it traveled only a few miles from its manufacture place at Vickers elswick, I would imagine it came out of a municipal museum collection- probably Newcastle or Gateshead who are bo****s regarding military history. Steve

I assume there was no disconnector on this weapon, but his mates don't seem too bothered:wow:

Hi Eddy Yes that was the link I really wanted, more exicted Poles than when my local deli closed and sold off the lard and onions at half price:cheesy: Remarkable what can be done by a government spported museum! Don't know about it being blown up by it's own crew, as you were "in" you know it would bad enough to report a total loss to the adjudant or CSM but turning up without personal weapons would ensure a CO's award. Looking at the vehicle both in the recovery stage and restoration I see little evidence of it being destroyed by the crew, -P4 variants were easilly destroyed, this one had alot of undamaged ammo in it, added to which looking at the open chassis note the ammo rack behind the driver seat, to the right under the gun mount is another rack and a total of 63 rds around the compartment, on the left side the large metal box behind the seat ammo box is a fuel tank, note the filler pipe to it through the side wall along with another further back supplying a second tank abutting the fire wall. With all the ammo and even petrol in the fighting compartment demolision would result in huge damage, which this tank despite first appearance does not have. I think it was lost in the river either falling through ice, a failed pontoon or drivng into a none existant ford, the damage of the loss of the superstucture could have happened any time subsequently. This loss would explain why personal weapons were still inside, the crew escaping in a hurry to avoid drowning. There is another complete StuG 4 at other Polish museum and the complete superstructure at the Warsaw tank museum. Steve

The rads, fluid and filters on a RR Condor (Challenger Kalhed chieftain upgrade package) weighs about 750kg I would think the L60 Rads etc would be similar so a dry L60 should be about 2000kg. 64.9 tonnes x 0.98 = 63.6 UK imperial tons (SI unit multiple to convert metric tonnes 2205lbs into UK imperial tons 2240lbs):cheesy: Steve

I found this tank while looking for a link to the Polish restored StuG 4 it shows a matilda wreck found in a river called the Jasenok (according the web site www.detektorweb.cz) however as yet I cannot find any google web map reference to it. but is possibly in the Belorus/ Northern Ukraine area- Kalinin front area. Steve

Assuming the motor could be kept running at least the crew wouldn't freeze in the Russian winter:-D:-D steve

We need to be sure which afv we are talking about is the bit in the culvert at "glady" (english traslation) a StuG 4 as opposed to a jagdpanzer 4 L/48 -L/70. The StuG 4 I mentioned is the polish web site http://www.odkrywca.pl/galerie.php?nazwa=359 to 362 show the removal of the StuG 4, note the bridge in the background (not a culvert), If you give it some thought it is understandable that tanks afvs etc drown near bridges. In ww2 the bridges would be smaller/lighter often requiring tracked vehicles to ford or risk crossing ice bound water near to the bridge, to save bridges for wheeled and foot movements.

Hi Alistair, I think you may be confusing the StuG 4 rather than this which appears to be a Jagdpanzer 4 l/70(although could be the shorter barreled l/48) however I doubt it was intact when dumped in the ditch, possibly the superstructer or even just the front plate and gun mount, -as there is little evidence in the photo of the front the hull where the final drives and transmission and viewing the relative aspect of the gun this should be above the gun which seems upside down. Most tanks relics from ww2in Poland today will be underwater or the mushroom hunters would have found them. Steve

When the Bulgarian stuff was dug out of the "turk line" about 2 years ago one Russian oligarch offered a substanical sum for the vomag L/70. Museums in Romania found it very difficult to retain exhibits because of offers and bribes being made from very rich Russians and to be fair both some German (you don't hear much of mega rich German collectors) U.S. and British citizens are just as bad. Technically the ownership of tanks and armoured vehicles in the Russian Federation is resistricted. As it says on one site "if you want a tank join the army" -it also says "or be very rich" Touble is Putin is reeling in his enemies I am sure an oligarch who pays his tribute to Czar Putin can have as many tanks- ikons or whatever he likes. Steve