10FM68

It looks an excellent example. It is a Truck, Utility, CL ½ tonne 4x4 Rover Series 3. 07GN04 should be one of a batch of some 300 delivered in the accounting year 1976 – 1977. CL, or Commercial, Land Rovers were, basically, civilian pattern vehicles with some minor modifications or additions to make them compatible with other military vehicles. All would have, for example, a military fire extinguisher. Most, though not all, had a military tow hook and NATO trailer socket fitted to the rear. Generally, they were fitted with civilian pattern lights. Most had the “deluxe” bonnet with the rounded edges. Some had large recovery loops fitted to the top of the front dumb irons above the bumper. Some were fitted with a bonnet locking hasp and staple – a civilian optional extra and most had civilian pattern canvas tilts (though, of course, these were easily changed in service if damaged for the nearest equivalent in the stores). Early examples were issued in standard Land Rover green with galvanised parts left unpainted while later ones were in satin “NATO” green, with, again, the galvanised parts left unpainted. Markings would have been minimal – RHD ones would have the district marking, then an oblique stroke and a number - something like “SEDIST/23” in white on the front wing and the rear above the lights. They didn’t have bridge circles. Most were used for driver training and domestic duties, such as security patrols, carrying the dog handlers, providing the duty vehicle etc. although some, particularly those on the strength of Territorial Army units often found themselves being camouflaged black and green and used in more military roles, albeit for home defence, or, occasionally, for reinforcement of BAOR. The other identifying features were, firstly, the civilian pattern fuel filler cap just behind the driver’s door. Military-specification Series 3s didn’t have this – they had two fuel tanks with their fillers under the seats, so not visible externally. Secondly, the rear cross member which was of civilian pattern. It was divided, approximately into thirds: the centre part was parallel top and bottom with a large hole in it to take the PTO. The two outside sections had their bottom edges tapered upwards towards the vehicle sides with a small “grab handle-style” bumper on each side. A military cross member was parallel across the whole rear of the vehicle with no large PTO hole and a pair of substantial rectangular bumperettes in place of the grab handles. But, bear in mind, there were a lot of them and that meant a lot of variations – so the comments above are only a generalisation – they do not hold good for every vehicle! And, yes, 3TRRE had a number of them in 56 Sqn at Church Crookham where they replaced similar Series 2A CLs 10 68

Looks like an FV2700 10-ton semi-trailer. There's an example of one being towed behind a Thorneycroft "Big Ben" in Bart Vanderveen's book. 10 68 Sorry, Wally - you beat me to it!

Yes, you'll be free of road tax next year, provided you register it as an historic vehicle. Have a look on the DVLA site follow from www.gov.uk for what you need to do. Priority - bulkhead/footwells and rear cross member rust badly and, if a Lightweight, vent panel. But watch for corrosion wherever steel meets aluminium. Remember, it is a 40 year-old vehicle - older than WWII vehicles were when they were being restored in the 70s - so things will be worn, but, just about everything can be replaced. www.rlcarchive.org yes, second half of 70s - certainly 1979 was matt green - best way to check which yours was is to look somewhere it won't have been repainted by the military or by a PO - inside the dashboard, for example. For parts - get yourself a copy of the illustrated parts catalogue so you can trace part numbers. Then put those numbers into search boxes on dealers websites and you'll start to get an idea of where to go. Try Craddocks, P A Blanchard, LR Series, Paddock Spares, Totalparts and you'll find a host of others. And enjoy! 10 68

Rather than 48 Gurkha Bde, I think the sign is more likely to be 5 Bde - a white key crossing left to right over a white bayonet. https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwiXieP-8LzYAhVHC8AKHSqlBfoQFggpMAA&url=https%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2F5th_Infantry_Brigade_(United_Kingdom)&usg=AOvVaw0L5f_i11ePledmFWHHaOds 10 68

Sorting out time-lines for the contraction of the TA post-war is a real nightmare. Have a look at this site and see the dates for changes among the RA TA units, for example: http://british-army-units1945on.co.uk/ There is the added confusion of the fact that, at around the same time, many regular infantry battalions were brigaded and made to replace their regimental cap badges with brigade ones - you may remember the outcry - the Argyles, for example, when they deployed in Aden in 67 gave up their brigade badge (the crucified moose) and insisted on wearing their traditional Argyles cap badge - further adding to the dislike of their CO by the authorities, as it happened. But these brigades were short-lived and most unpopular. It is really tricky trying to sort things out with British Army formations because, as is said above, sometimes divisions and brigades were not field force formations, merely administrative organisations. A similar thing happened much later when the districts became "regenerative divisions", I think they were called - so 1 Div and 3 Div were active, while 2, 4 and 5 basically the former UK military districts. I can't remember the full details now, but I'm sure they're accessible somewhere on the internet. 10 68

Yep, that would cover it - top right 51 Highland Brigade, below it 52 Lowland Brigade, then 53 Welsh Brigade. I won't do them all, but the one you're interested in is there. A brown AOS sign later than 1961 would be the junior, of three - the others having red and green squares - brigade HQ or one of its constituent infantry battalions the numbering should be 54 - 58, with 54 the bde HQ and the other three numbers its infantry battalions. 10 68

It is indeed Close Support and the "66" on the Red/Blue RA ground also indicated a divisional Close Support Regiment and for a TA District at that time. If the Arm of Service (AOS) sign is contemporary with the Scottish Saltire, then it probably belonged to the TA in Scotland, but I can't find in my books the timeline for 52 Scottish Brigade who used the Saltire, so I don't know what that formation might have been in the 1960s. I'll keep looking! Further looking comes up with at least six possibilities: 275 to 280 Fd Regts RA(TA). Difficult to tell as there were major disbandments, amalgamations and reorganisations in the TA Gunners between 1954 and 1961 and the detail I have isn't clear which of the regiments belonged to 51 Highland Brigade of 52 Lowland - both were, it seems, by this time administrative districts for TA units in Scotland. And none is described as a close support regiment. Still, it's a start, perhaps. 10 68

And thank you also, Clive. All very interesting - one of the pleasures of refurbishing a military vehicle - of any kind and age - is the detective work which goes with it. It would have been nice to have had the various documents which went with my vehicle, as it is I have only the B Card, showing its service with two London-based TA regiments. But, it's all intersting stuff. Many thanks 10 68

Again, I am much obliged, Richard. I suspected that was the meaning of "EC" - though, as you say, by the time my engine was reconditioned, Eastern Command had gone and SEDIST was in its place. Many thanks 10 68

Lizzie, I am sorry to see you go and would ask you to reconsider. Yours has been a most fascinating, informative and lively thread which enjoyed a good following. I'm afraid one of the downsides of the internet is the ease with which photographs, music and much more can "leak" from its origins and appear elsewhere with no credit to the originator, but we all know that anything we put on the web is in the public domain, for better or worse, and it will be there long after we are gone and no longer matter - but, in this case, these photographs will have been your contribution to greater knowledge for us now and for those who come after us. But, annoying for you though it is, I'm sure you agree that, in historical terms, it is better that these photographs are out there "in the wild" than locked in a dusty drawer to be thrown out by unaware or uninterested relatives after the aged owner dies. Keep back those you want to use in your book, of course, but, don't regret the spread of those you have posted - you have the satisfaction of knowing where they came from, while members of the Champ fraternity (I'm not one, by the way), will have gained enormous pleasure from them as well and I am sure there are many other places where your photos are appearing and being enjoyed - places we've probably never even heard of! As you have said, you enjoy this thread, it won't work without your contribution, so get back in the saddle and keep this thread going, which is, after all, at the very core of Historic Military Vehicles. And, yes, I am sure I shall buy a copy of your book in due course! 10 68

Richard, if you would be so kind as to indulge me a bit further. When the engine was reconditioned, it was then preserved and traces of the stencilling on the rocker cover remain, though not enough to read it all. I should like to reproduce it on my finished engine so would it have said something like this, "PRESERVED EC02 08/85"? And was there any significance in the colour of the stencilling? Mine is red, but I think I have seen more in black. Thanks again 10 68

My goodness, that was quick - many thanks for that, Richard. I remember the barracks there in the 80s - Rowcroft, I think it was. Much appreciated 10 68

One, perhaps, for Richard Farrant or John Wardle. My Series 3 Lightweight Land Rover has a REME-reconditioned engine. It was overhauled in 1985 by Workshop No EC02. Can anyone tell me which workshop that was? Thanks 1068

Very interesting. I hadn't thought of Libyan Police for the Series 2, I just assumed RAF from the configuration, but, Police seems more likely, I suppose and it does seem a tad dark for RAF blue. Interesting about the callsigns "Niner" for the OC and Eight Bravo for the SSM. Not what I would have expected. 10 68

A fascinating picture. Do you know what was happening? There are several staff cars present, Humber Snipes and a larger, US-looking one inside the hollow square and dozens of bicycles piled behind the ATC trailer. There is a band and flags and someone dressed differently from all the others by the door of the car in the centre - in a Mac - is he an American? Some uniforms seem darker than others - RAAF? But, intriguingly, no one is looking at the centre, they're all looking across to bottom right of the photo - in front of the leading Lanc. If 1945, could it be a send off for RAAF going home? 10 68

An interesting set of photos. Eagle eyes, BB! A padre indeed - but has he been lent OC C Sqn's Land Rover for this trip - and who was taking the photos - I presume both photos of the Land Rover on its own are on the same occasion? And is it then the same Land Rover as the one at the back of the DC4? Must be 1960, certainly not a lot earlier, given the, probably RAF, hard-top Series 2 (Rover 6?) Land Rover there as well - otherwise these photos could have slipped events back into the middle fifties. The Ferrets seem to have been photographed first thing in the morning with the crews doing their ablutions (officer's driver cleaning his boots, chap to the left with his towel out combing his hair and the officer's sleeping kit still lying on the floor). The lefthand of the two has two pennants - is that also an officer's or WO's vehicle - could be a young officer with his back to us? The Saracen (can't quite make out the name - could it be Circe from The Odyssey?) seems to be a CV, judging by the aerial mast support guys and there's a good roll of D10 on the officer's Ferret. Is that a Ford (Commer-cab) ambulance in one of the photos and does it say "2RTR" on the white bar above the AOS sign on the water trailer's door? Fascinating 10 68

That is absolutely superb! Fantastic! FV430 command vehicles next? About a dozen of them and you'll have a Div HQ in the field! 10 68

http://www.rlcarchive.org/Help/Acronyms#collapse3 Have a look at this link - it gives all the colour codes - CH for "champagne" anyone? There is also a short list of other B Card-related abbreviations and further links to military abbreviations current and of WWII - quite handy, I think 10 68

This is a standard MoD paint code for Green (7) and Gloss(2) - suggesting that your Land Rover was painted Deep Bronze Green. Later Land Rovers, from around 1979 had the code 76 which was green IRR. During its service life, it is entirely probable that it would have been repainted in "NATO" green, probably with 1/3 of it being painted matt black in a disruptive pattern - hence black appearing in some places but not in others. Regarding the tow hitch, strictly speaking, no it shouldn't be painted. Some units were actually instructed to leave them in bare metal, but lightly greased, the idea being that a crack could be spotted - but, frankly, that wasn't particularly brilliant as cracks were no more visible once the grease had collected the dirt, unless, of course, the grease had already rubbed off onto your trouser leg! Many, if not most, were supplied in black and simply left that way. Some tow hitches were painted red, either to make them look smarter for a parade, because the soldier with the tin of red paint in his hand was a bit bored, or because someone thought it a good idea to make it more obvious to save their shins! You'll find similar done to lifting eyes, makers' nameplates and other detail at different times. The nuts of split-rim wheels, however, were always supposed to be painted red. Hope this helps 10 68

I use The British Army in Germany (BAOR and after) An Organizational History, 1947-2004 by Graham Watson and Richard Ronaldi, Tiger Lily Productions LLC for ORBAT.com 2005. That shows 6 Armd Div to have been supported, from November 1952, by 27 Field Engineer Regiment based in St George's Barracks, Minden with 1, 25 and 28 Field Squadrons and 44 Field Park Squadron under command. According to Staff Duties in the Field, 41 on a blue ground was indeed the AOS marking for the field engineer regiment. According to Dick Taylor's Warpaint, Vol 3, 41 was used by a fd engr sqn, rather than regt, in a WWII armd div. 10 68

Of course, you are most welcome. I should be able to interpret most of it. 10 68

Well, there are only three real choices: either my source which says 14/20H were in Libya in 1964 is wrong, or the detail on your B card is wrong, or you have mis-read it. Sometimes, a unit deploying abroad can leave behind a rear party - this regularly appears on B Cards as "R/Pty" or something similar. I wouldn't have expected 14/20H to have a rear party left in Germany for three years, however, particularly as they didn't return to Germany but went to UK. So, there has to be an error in the mix somewhere. 10 68

14/20H were in Wavell Bks Benghazi, Libya between late 62 and Dec 65, having previously been in Hohne West Germany. They left Libya for Cachy Bks Perham Down from Jan 66. While in Libya, A Sqn was detached to Cyprus, for a tour with UNFICYP in May - Nov 65. 10 68

Well, I don't like change either! But... the new format is actually an improvement. Yes, it is better! In particular, I do like the ability, by using "expanded" mode in "activity", to read the latest posts without having to click on them and open them up. And this can be done without even logging on. So far, I have been able to find everything and follow the threads I enjoy. Some of the filler nonsense such as announcing changes to profile pictures is tiresome, but easy enough to tune out. And I do hope those who have so much to offer the rest of us persevere - I would be very disappointed to see some of the outstanding restoration threads disappear. I do understand, as well, that this was a change forced on you by changes in support - I've seen lots of that at work over the years and they have been a pain most of the time, but, after a week or two of using the new system, we're happy enough and the old one is soon forgotten. And, considering I have access to this vast resource for which I don''t have to pay a penny.... So, thanks Joris, good job, well done! 10 68