ted angus

RAF Salamnder

and is this Royal Canadian Air Force Salamander???? is that what R.Cn.A.F. stands for, I would have thought R.C.A.F. was correct, enlighten me.

R.Cn.A.F. is Royal Ceylon Air Force That is their national symbol on the side of the truck

TED

The vast majority went back to the Bunde( west German government ) during the 1960s some of the trucks went on to a second life with their CD and disaster organisations. Some of the box bodied vehicles were downgraded from MT vehicles to Ground Support Equipment and used in a static role i.e. offices on dispersals I know of several coaches that were buried as command posts The RAF regt rapier sqn at Bruggen had 2 places off the airfield where they they had them as command posts. The trailers continued in service longer; especially the generators as I stated earlier in the thread. As you state by 1970 most of the trucks had gone.

For your info, the german provisioned MT covered the whole range; refuellers. tankers, GS trucks, coaches, heavy prime movers and trailers, certain plant etc etc. In most period pictures the only UK origin vehicles are Landies surrounded by German stuff.

In Berlin we continued to use German kit til we pulled out; It was funded from a special Berlin budget.

In Berlin the Army had a lot of German origin non armoured vehicles, but I don't know about in the rest of Germany; RAF vehicles are of course my main interest so I took little interest in what the brown jobs were doing.

TED

During my first Germany tour 79 to 82 there were several guys reaching the end of their time who had used the German vehicles and spoke highly of them. I worked with the baucher generators and mobile workshops- outstanding quality is the best description I can give. Many of the generators were subsequently put into service with the German civil defence/disaster organisation and that was after 30 years + with the RAF. Even the design of the trailers was better e.g. with built in tow eye adjustment to accomadate differing tow hook heights as an example.

TED.

Meant to add the author on TRANSPORT CAFE is incorrect in calling the unith 8th This americanism was rarely used by the RAF the correct recorded title of this unit is "No 8 Mobile Field Photographic Section".

TED

These vehicles were not bought; they were provided by the West German government as post WW2 reperations. At this time the vast proportion of non armoured vehicles used by the RAF during this period were reperation assetts. For a period of 4 to 5 years they and all other RAF vehicles in Germany (including fire tenders) were painted deep bronze green gloss which is the colour they bear in the colour photos. Few if any found their way to UK as they were to be returned to the west German government at the end of their useful life or when they became surplus to our requirements. It was all exceptionally high standard kit, there were some fantastic mobile workshops with expanding bodies on 2 axle trailers.

The last item I came accross was a Baucher generator which we were using at Laarbruch and were forced to return to the Bunde in 1989,

TED

Adam that is slightly more difficult : home Office documents repeatedly refer to it as Metropolitan Police Blue After extensive searches it does not appear to match any BS number however I reckon BS 381c tint 106 Royal Blue might be a decent colour for a full respray.

TED

I have an ex AFS Gipsy, did a complete respray; covered her up with a tarp for the bad weather, the securing rope chaffed a small area on a wing, touched up from the same tin both for the original respray and the touch up I tumbled and shook the tin then stirred for 5 minutes In just 5 months visibly darker. That is why for many years the Goddesses in storage looked like patchwork quilts until they got a full respray.

Deep Bronze green is one of just a handful of colours that darkens ; whereas most fade.

TED

Excuse the previous post i had finger trouble! here is the current BS381C chart, note that this has changed a few times over the years, so if you are ordering paint, make sure it is the same code as the modern chart!!!

 

http://www.stephen.hull.btinternet.co.uk/bs381c.html

 

By the way, the AFS colour isnt Deep Bronze Green, they used something else, Croc on this forum knows what it is, as he has a tin of matching paint for his AFS Gipsy, he has an ex AFS Bedford RL as well, and all the shades of green are slightly different.

ADAM the AFS, CD, British Army and the RAF in Germany for a 5 year period all used BS 381c tint 224 Gloss deep Bronze Green. This colour darkens with age hence many GGs look much darker than DBG but you can be assured this info is spot on

TED

Mike , Croc et al. I did a fair amount of work for John & Barry during the research for The Green Machine. Since then my research has continued.

The reconstituted AFS in 1948/9 had the same remitt as its 1938 forefather; i.e. to augment the local authority brigades in time of war or other national disaster, in the event of war the fire service along with the AFS contingents would again become Nationalised and would be referred to as the Emergency Fire Service. ex NFS appliances put into store after WW2 were issued to brigades to facilitate training of their AFS contingent.

At the same time a new range of pumping appliances and support vehicles were designed and without too much delay put into production. ALL these actions were by the Home Office. Recruitment to the AFS was very unsatisfactory and initiatives were considered to overcome the problem; almost concurrently it was recognised that fire service units would need to be moved away from target areas to give them any chance of survival after a nuclear attack. The mobile column concept had been developed in WW2 and it was decided that apart from an small element of the fire service remaining at home stations to provide home cover then all other assetts including all the not required for home cover red appliances would be dispersed to safe areas. Using vehicles held in regional Home and Scottish Office stores self sufficient mobile columns would be formed. . please note the specialist red appliances such as foam tenders , turntable ladders etc would not actually be part of a column but would be co located with them at dispersed locations as regional assetts. These locations were earmarked in each home defence region and were known as "mounting bases" The majority of mounting bases were non operational RAF bases. At the request of the Home Office the RAF assumed responsible for feeding and rationing all personel at these bases. In addition, pumping appliances surplus to the needs of the mobile columns would be formed into "Light Columns" of 5 , 10 or 15 pump companies manned by any availible personnel. Light columns were not self sufficient, and would need feeding by the mounting base and would receive fuel from secure stock near to the base. .

A Home Office Fire Service Tactical Training Centre was established at and co located with, the Surrey Brigade HQ at Riegate, staffed by fire service volunteers from across the UK to develop the concept of operations for mobile columns and to test and develop the designs of the specialist AFS vehicles before mass production commenced.

Returning to the manpower ; The manpower situation for both the CD & AFS was to be solved by earmarking Army & RAF reservists (who would not be required for military service in their previous national service branch or trade if war was declared), as manpower for both the mobile columns of the "AFS" and a Mobile Defence Corps that would augment the rescue and ambulance sections of CD. The MDC was very short lived and during its life seemed to concentrate on rescue & ambulance duties although on paper it was to man 12 fire columns. .

To this end, the RAF bases at Washington Hall and Moreton in Marsh became training bases to train RAF national servicemen in all aspects of mobile column operations using the AFS appliances, not just the operation of the Goddesses but everything, it was envisaged that the majority of complete columns would be almost solely RAF manned but with its establishment including a small number of fire service officers. The courses undertaken by RAF national servicemen in mobile column operations prior to discharge lasted up to 6 months per man

Each home defence region would be under the " command of the Regional Commissioner" who would be a government minister. On his staff would be the Regional Fire Service Commander. All Fire fighting assetts both civilian or RAF manned would be under his command, This Fire Commander would have been the Chief Fire Officer of a county within that region . So although the majority of fire fighting personel would have been RAF they would have been under civilian command.

With the development of the mobile column concepts production of AFS appliances shifted from the Bedford S 4x2 chassis to the RL 4x4 plus a number on the Commer Q4 4x4. 90% of AFS appliances never left their regional Home Office and Scottish Office stores. Many remained in primer until the mid 1960s and many of the 4x4 GGs never received AFS markings.

So : although the AFS was a civilian organisation raised and funded by the Home Office had we gone to war the organisation would have been the Emergency Fire Service and it would have been mainly RAF manned, by personel trained on all AFS vehicles; Bikinis line laying etc etc. Had it gone to war it would have been under the command of the civilian regional commisioner via the regional fire commander.

Once national service ended in 1963 a new manpower plan was devised and training of TA units in emergency firefighting and CD rescue and ambulance duties commenced.

Up to 1968 the majority of "AFS" appliances never left their respective storage depots, hence the low milages when disposed of. Consequently they were in reality never used by anyone. However we must remember that at any time local authority brigade could borrow Home Office appliances to meet certain needs, in 1976 500 were loaned out due to the massive increase in fire from the near drought. In the 1980s and early 1990s brigades borrowed large numbers in response to floods.

Unfortunately most of our recollections are of seeing them with military crews during the many disputse that have taken place since 1976 including the national ones in 1977/8 and 2002/3.

Ted

The current Witham tender contains some Land Rovers that have "MOD core plant" lettering.

What is MOD core plant?

Is there any special reason why these Land Rovers have more rust than usual?

 

Would anyone going to the viewing days be willing to take some detailed pictures of the RAF police Station Wagon for me?

I wonder if that also came from the MOD core plant and how bad the rust on it is.

 

Daniel

Re MOD police station could you give me a link to it please I cannot see it on their website ??

Ta

Daniel, MOD core plant are the vehicles used by the civillian facilities management company at Mount Pleasant airfield in the Falklands.

Last year some Bedford MK/J sewage trucks and gully emptiers passed through Withams they were sheds when I saw them at mt pleasant in 1995. Rust is extreme down there! beware

TED

May be the purr of the RR B series which was common to both !

A couple more shots. it was 25 nov 1957 4 bombs smuggled in the previous night. The hanger contained Canberra aircraft.

Picture Courtesy Steve Guest. Photo sub title "A bomb Station" but I don't know what that means, but obvoiusly a large Hanger fire....

This is a result of a bomb placed by EOKA terrorists at RAF Akrotiri. In the photo 2 x MK 5 crash tender and a Leyland Hippo warter Tender. There were several such attacks I have at least one similar shot of that incident. They also torched a brand new barrack block at RAF episkopi.

There were no serious casualties in this incident but the EOKA did kill many members of HM Forces , their families and members of the UK civil government depts including attached police in their campaign for enosis with main land Greece.

I am told the above is a recent picture, but the Matadors still have RAF registrations. And are in standard RAF flatbed form, but why are they Yellow? Suggestions please.

Mike THe Airfield Construction/Air Ministry Works Dept ACB/AMWD boys at RAF Nicosia supported RAF EL Adam which was in Libya. we were kicked out of Libya in 1968/9.

In addition I was in Cyprus 1970 to 74 and there was no way ex military vehicle went into civillian hands fully marked and then driven with military reg numbers. I suggest this is a late 1950s-- early 1960s photo and is what the caption said, remember at that time RAF Nicosia was the main RAF base on the Island, its the Limassol bit that is strange the main port at the time was Famagusta unless they were going out to a boat off Limassol on a lighter. But whichever I think this is a 1950/60s piccy.

re colour, if the ACB/AMWD were employed on active airfield the senior air traffic guy in the Mid East may have insisted on all yellow.

regards TED

They state its a SUN bodied appliance actually its a Pyrene here is a piccy I captured from their promotional film which is downloadable .

Sorry I meant to add the one for sale HXA 866 was converted by Birmingham airport into a de icer; although the bulk of her remains original.

She is the only know example of the Austin K6 crash tender of that design to have survived. The vehicle was in very good condition when the current outfit got her I say no more !! ARGHHHH

TEd

This collection has done more miles since the vehicles joined the collection than when they were in service ! I first saw this collection when I was on a course at RAF Cardington in 1983. THey were colocated with the fire research station in the right hand airship shed !!

Here is a picture of HXA 912 when she was in much safer hands at Duxford !!

Peter the design of many of these different types of GSE was appalling, consequently keeping them serviceable was a constant headache. If you think that chassis arrangement was heath robinson you should have seen inside some of them The forerunner of your piece of kit was the MK 5 air cooling and conditioning trolley used to cool V bombers shackletons transports etc in hot climates. If the internal temp of these aircraft wasn't kept fairly constant condensation in the Avionics ( aircraft electronics) and electrics could and often did cause major malfunctions.

The MK 5 was reknown for its useless battery charging system, not too much of a problem when they were powered by a petrol Ford later they changed to a Ford diesel which obviously required a much greater starting current. The 2 12v 100ah batteries were mounted just under the canopy roof which was just under 6 ft high. many finger tips lost !!

good luck

TED

Peter best I can do I am afraid a modern tractor but it shows the idea TED

Peter presuming its the original hitch It's not visible in your shots; These items of ground support equipment (GSE) should have been towed by Tractors equipped with a multi jaw towing hitch with pin. Many of these items weighed 2 tons or more, for braking to be effective the tow bar should be parrallel with the ground hence the multi jaw which gave choice of 5 positions a range of 12 to 30 inches above ground height.

On flying stations, Landies on flights /sections/ sqns that needed to move GSE were often additionally established with SWB Landies equipped with a similar towing device. Although this particular trolley was outside the towing range of a swb Landie they were often used for towing way beyond the legal limit. Often the source of accidents in wet or icy conditions, put the Landie brakes on wheels lock but trailer wants to continiue and a jackknife results.

Towing with a standard landie hitch meant the tow bar was not parrallel to the ground, the eye would be somewhat higher than it should have been, when the Landie braked the eye would be bent up , in the extreme the eye would shear and/or the tow bar would bend. In case you are not familiar with this type of hitch I am looking for a piccy I can send unfortunately my scanner id dead or you could have several.

TED

Well done, Ted, that's what we thought it may have been from, that or a genny :-D

 

With your permission I will let the guys over on our engine forum know what it is, with a credit for your picture.

 

Peter

My pleasure not knowing your background and not trying to teach anyone to suck eggs you are aware this is not a road going trailer. designed for airfield use only on paved surfaces.

regards TED

Peter trapped my fingers many times in the drive belts of this; your trailer is the chassis of a MK7 Air Conditioning Trolley

regards TED

I spent the weekend looking on the internet for back-up of my claims. (I do have books but they are in deep archive and I am not going to turn the house upside down.) I found only one site which backed up my claim in a roundabout way, an apparently ancient manual on Waffen-SS camouflage patterns.

 

Clearly, history has been changed underneath me and I am now wrong. I apologise to anybody I have annoyed with this argument. Hereafter, I shall refer to DPM simply as DPM and if anybody ever asks what it stands for, I'll hold my tongue and shan't get dragged into the argument.

 

This is what happens when a mistake is allowed to propagate and turn into a monster. In another generation, all history will be politically correct and our grandchildren will be taking exams in txtspk instead of English.

 

I hope this draws a line and I can come out of my stone at some point.

Dear Mr Alien (sorry I don't know your name) you certainly haven't annoyed me, I don't consider this an arguement we are adults and to me its a debate and debate is a very healthy as far as I am concerned; debate forms a fmost usefull part of these forums, I am sure we have all lived under misnowmer at some time or other I know I have on several occassions.

Now don't get me going on text speak -- the curse of the english language.

Please come out of your stone !!!

regards TED

Well, whilst I ought to respect the Army bibles, sorry but I simply cannot. They may call it disruptive in their manuals until they are blue in the face, but the pattern of camouflage is dispersed, not disruptive and they are wrong.

 

I'll posit that they derived the abbreviation for the Dennison during the war, when it was indeed disruptive and when the rest of the army got combats, the manual writers either forgot or were ignorant (by which I do not mean stupid) and failed to update the book.

 

Throughout my career, people who knew always taught me Dispersed, and explained the difference because in Recce camouflage makes a difference and people who called it Disruptive got slapped. I believe that like elsewhere, people these days just become sloppy and allow errors to become fact (like ASCII - see below).

 

I shall accept that you have documentary proof that, according to a reliable book, I am wrong. It is just sad that errors like this in important documents do not get stamped on.

 

The more I think about this, I now vaguely remember exchanging a combat jacket in Paderborn (which dates it as 1977 - 1982) and noticing that the label, instead of saying "SMOCK MAN'S COMBAT DPM", said "SMOCK MAN'S COMBAT DISPERSED".

 

Thinking further, I remember a friend whose mother worked in a factory churning out combats and they always used the word "dispersed".This implies to me that people who did not have "disruptive" burnt onto the brain learned the correct term not the official term.

 

A challenge. Tell me was ASCII stands for. I'll give you a clue. You'll find hundreds of thousands of wrong answers on the internet but my search returns less than two thousand right answers. (In the days when search engines were primitive, I only found EIGHT correct answers on the entire internet, one of which was the website of the body which owns it.)

I didn't need my bible I knew the answer. By the way my oldest son he has 21 years under his belt, his partner 20 years, my youngest son 16 years service and his wife 17 years service -- 3 of the 4 of them are still serving all turned up for tiffin this afternoon -- the girls are taking part in a charity 10km on the Forth bridge tomorrow I showed them your post, they were shocked someone with previous service was so confused .

TED

39 years service much of it wearing disruptive pattern material.