ted angus

That isn't too surprising. If the vehicle was not regularly employed on the movement area then it didn't have to be considered for either a yellow top or an all over yellow finish. I recall at Scampton in jan 66 to sept 70 , we had all yellow schemes, yellow tops on Blue /grey and all over blue /grey I would say 50% of vehicles solely used on the movement area had no yellow at all; Much of it was to do with the capacity in terms of manpower and facilities of the painting and finishing section.

Its a case of; we know what the regs were but how closely they were followed was another matter.

TED

Well here is a turn up for the books, I did ask Tankmaniac if he knew the original RAF reg number for his Explorer but to date he hasn't replied. I learnt today from a contact of mine that 43BT30 was one of a batch of 4 transferred to the army. 43BT30 was originally 07 AH 49 In my post where I quoted from AMO 32 I mentioned at the foot of the message 07 AH 49 served at RAF Chivenor and was painted yellow. There is in fact an in-service photo of it at Chivenor on another forum.

TED

I know that it is always dodgy trying to work out colours from B&W photos but I would say that this shot of a 1955 RAF Mighty Antar shows it to have the same colour for the cab roof, as for the rest of the bodywork, apart from Black wings.

 

Some would argue that since it was allocated to the Airfield Construction Branch, it was to be found on incompleteAirfields, so it would not have come into close proximity with Aircraft, and therefore did not need the Yellow roof.

 

My 1961 Mighty Antar also appears to have spent the first years of its working life with a Blue-grey roof.

 

The shot of the Pioneer shows the Bonnet top to have been yellow, My Antar never had a yellow bonnet, at any time.

Mike few ACB vehicles appear to have yellow tops I think you have hit the nail on the head the requirement was for vehicles operating in the movements area of an airfield. Your vehicle used to work on active runways so I would suggest that is why yours had yellow uppers. 5001 Sqn in the middle east had blue Grey vehicles with black & yellow cheque on upper surfaces !

TED

Ted. here are a couple of documents re my Explorer for your records.

Many thanks I believe NGY 583 was also an Explorer ??

TED

Good Morning Mike what reg was yours please in recent years I have tried to record individual vehicles as I learn about them .

To add to my message last night; in the hot climates, units were authorised to paint white the top surfaces of all passenger carrying compartments. So some overseas Explorers may have had white cab top.

in message 3 in this thread the Royal Aircraft Establishments (RAE) are mentioned, These were Farnborough, joined later by outstations at Thurliegh(Bedford) West Freugh and Llanbedr. There was also the Aircraft and Armament Experimental Establishment at Boscombe Down and the Royal Signals Est at Pershore airfield.

These establishments originally came under the Air Ministry as opposed to the operational arm of the Royal Air Force. During WW2 the Min Supply+ Min Aircraft Production were the lead organisations with a strong RAF and RN presence. After WW2 they gradually came solely under Ministry control passing through the hands of various ministries during the constant reorganisation of government departments. Early in the 1950s vehicles on these establisjhment ceased coming under RAF control and were allocated civil numbers from blocks kept for HMG vehicles NGY RGX are examples.

The convention of RAF colour schemes continued for several years but there were some glaring differences; some RAE airfield vehicles were painted a dull pinkie/red shade.

TED

Air Ministry Order A 32/1954 dated 18 Feb 1954, promulgated major changes to the RAF’s vehicle colour policy to reflect the differing requirements of the different geographic theatres of operations. I am only including the main points from the AMO as applicable to Explorers and vehicles likely to operate in conjunction with them.

All colours were from B.S. 381c-1948, second impression 1949: Ready –Mixed Paints.

• Home (UK) & Far East Air Force; BSC 633 High Gloss Enamel RAF Blue Grey, with canvas also to BSC 633 in bituminous emulsion.
  

• Middle East Air Force ( & later Near East Air Force); BSC 361 Light Stone, first finish coat in High Gloss the second finish coat in Matt; although vehicles appeared in both Gloss & Matt finishes. Canvas also to BSC 361 in polyvinyl acetate emulsion.
  

• 2nd Tactical Air Force (Germany , Nederlands & Belgium); BSC 224 High Gloss Deep Bronze Green . Canvas in BSC 298 Olive Drab in bituminous emulsion.
  

• Previously special markings and colour schemes to be applied to certain vehicles operating regularly in the movements areas of RAF aerodromes/airfields were published in AMOs specific to that subject. By 1950 this information was contained in A.P. 3024 (RAF Air Traffic Control) Pt 5 Sect 8 Para 256-258.
  

a. Home Airfields ; Upper surfaces ORANGE stores ref 33A/ 125- it should be noted that from early in 1940 there were conflicting and contradictory requirements published as to whether this colour was ORANGE or YELLOW ; most photographic evidence from 1943 onwards shows Yellow.

b. Overseas Airfields: Upper surfaces in a contrasting colour as determined by theAir Officer Commanding.

Note 1. by approx 1958 RAF in Germany and N.W. Europe was reverting to high gloss RAF Blue Grey.

Note 2. Notwithstanding AMO 32 /1954; In the Mid and Near East areas many vehicles were in RAF Blue Grey and often Light Stone vehicles appeared in the Far East.

Note 3. Even during WW2 some vehicles used solely or mainly in the movement area of an airfield were painted overall Yellow. During the late 1950s this was more common the colour being BSC 356 Golden Yellow. This scheme became more predominant during the 1960s, repainting in overall yellow was taking place right up to 1974 when BSC 285 IRR Matt Green was introduced on UK RAF Strike Command airfields and also on airfields in RAF Germany.

Note 4. Along with the introduction of IRR Green, Tactical units including the RAF Regt and RAF Harrier Force at RAF Gutesloh in Germany were authorised to apply a disruptive pattern over the Green using IRR Matt Black.

Turning to Explorer examples.

06AH15 first served at RAF El Firdan in the Suez Canal Zone in 1954 finished in overall Lt Stone. By 1960 it was at RAF Tubruk, Libya finished in RAF Blue Grey.

06AH 17 in 1983 was serving on the Harrier Force based at RAF Gutesloh finished in Matt Green/Black disruptive pattern

06AH19 first served at RAF Eindoven in the Nederlands in 1954 finished in either RAF Blue Grey or Deep Bronze Green.

06AH 78 in 1967 was serving with No 71 MU RAF Bicester as a tractor for oversize aircraft salvage and recovery trailers with the RAF aircraft salvage and transportation unit.

Finished in RAF Blue Grey.

07AH49 in 1969 operated mainly on the airfield at RAF Chivenor on aircraft salvage duties and was painted overall yellow.

Somewhere on your vehicle will be a plate with its original RAF reg number which should be **AH ** The BT is an Army reg number, BT being allocated to vehicles transferred to the Army from either the RAF or RN .

Hope this is usefull

TED

I have the AMO and supporting info current for 1955 and the life of this vehicle. I will try and type it up later tonight bear with me

TED

C W in those days virtually everything with any form of coachwork had a timber frame . Post war all the Goddess fire truck of which many were made by Papworth timber frames. In 1970 we rebuilt the front of a Bedford CF RAF ambylance much of it was timber framw.

The RAF's first RR b series powered fire truck The MK 5 had a timber frame.

Papworth have made stuff for all manner of people military civil WW2 services private customers you name it they have done it. post WW2 they did a mass of work for Austin.

TED

Ney Ney they are Austin 16 Woodies Papworth Industries built 500 between 1947 and 1949 See attached

CW the piccy you posted was taken 47-49 their Gadafi wagon production was during WW2

TED

Adam just replied to PM sorry I keep forgetting to check in there !!

TED

Adam I think we go backwards !!! you must persuade Croc to part with a brockhouse trailer for my Gipsy !!

TED

Morning Adam, full chat sums it up, we calculated that running these GPUs with lots of aircraft systems functioning equated to a Mk6 fire truck being overloaded well beyond the 5 ton payload and running for 8 hours with foot to the floor.

Before we lost OMD110 we took pride in the servicability of the GPU fleet. Every month plugs and points were changed they could only take max load if they were finely tuned with excellent points and plugs.

We used to tune them on a resistive load bank to get the peak timing position. The twin points were bench set using a home made light and battery protracter gizmo The SU carbs on the B61 were balanced then initially set with a "colourtune" the colourtune was also used on the B81s Solex but I don't recall one ever being out of true. The B61 tuning was the most critical it was the air portable GPU and we were constantly deploying to the Gulf yes we have been there before many times in our history _ so they were really pushed beyond the limit . But as I said apart from the oil dilution sydrome they were really serviceable on 110 plus I don't recall changing the oil to 330 before deploying either to the gulf or Luqa or Akrotiri.

The cause ; the increased and obviously detrimental cleaning effect of the multi grade plus it just could not provide the lube accross the operating temp range that the engine ran at.

Moving away from 60 110 & 330 as crankcase oil was a cost cutting efficiency Ha Ha !!

You may wonder what an old retired fart is doing on his PC at this time

well Kitchen & Bathroom world of Dens Rd Dundee are putting in a new bathroom its a back to the joists and studs job nearly £600 of tiles guess what yesterday they completed the tiling but its the wrong tiles

At 08-00 I will be grabbing windpipes down the phone . !!

TTFN

TED the angry of Balmullo

I also meant to say straight SAE 30 is what I would use its availible from Morris and others

TED

There is much said about what oils you put in them, the original specification oil they were designed to use by Rolls Royce was OMD110 which was a straight 30 without detergent, the particulates going to the sump to be drained away at servicing.

As oil chemistry became more advanced with multigrades, the forces also moved with the times and they used 20/50 which i think equates to OMD80, this had detergents! not that they gave a hoot as this was the main engine oil purchased, everything that used OMD110 then went to OMD80.

 

Personally speaking, and im not saying that you must follow this!

I use the cheapest ASDA special 20w50 in the Humber Pig (RR B60), it meets the oil standards for its grade and probably exceeds old 30 Mono specs, i think it was a fiver a gallon last time i bought it, your vehicle probably wont be racking up the same mileages under the same stresses that the Army put on your Saracen.

It gets topped up using the same stuff, and drained annually, after the initial first flush/change, it comes out pretty clean, i very much doubt the oil has had a hard life, it comes out with the same viscosity as new.

I could go out and buy brand name 30W monograde and it would set me back considerably more money, and next year it will be drained into a bucket after little use.

Bearing in mind the conditions the vehicle is used, i.e predominantly Spring/Summer light use, low mileage with a bit of Off road work and light towing, i think it is more than suitable.

 

As for the rest of the lubrication, im not sure what it takes, Clive Elliot has done a piece on POL (Petrol Oil Lubricants) in Clives corner, which gives an explanation to the Military codes i.e OMD110 = 30w so just a matter of working out the civvy spec equivalent.

If you havent got some form of driver handbook or service manual, it is probably adviseable to get one, as you dont want to be pouring gear oil into something that should be using Hydraulic oil, which i know Saracens use.

 

Good luck!

Adam OMD means oil mineral detergent so 110 was/is a detergent oil

OMD 110 was a straight 30SAE for temperate climate, OMD 60 was for Artic and OMD 330 for tropical.

OMD 110 was replaced by OMD 75 which was a 10./30 multigrade and also had greater detergent properties this was the one that caused us havoc on the B series engines used in GPUs and wrecked many of the BMC 1800 staff cars. I think OMD 75 was replaced by OMD 80 another 10/30 but a much better article

TED

It was when the MoD changed from a series of single grade oils (dependant on ambient operating temp) to a multi grade, roughly 1974-76 period. The oil was breaking down and consequently the big end bearings were failing, often putting a con rod through the block. There was also evidence of oil starvation due to the detergents in the multi-grade releasing all manner of accumilations in to the oil ways.

On receipt of refurbed engines they were lasting a little longer but the problem never went away. I never heard if a final solution had been found as events overtook the problem; The Mk1 Victor was being phased out and replaced by the MK2 which used a different voltage; and hence a AEC powered ground power unit was supplied with it so our B series GPUs went out of service. Our fire trucks which used B 61 and 81 didn't suffer as badly. The factor being the electrical load and rpm our GPUs were running at was equivalent to running flat out at maximuin gross weight for up to 8 hours at a time. Its possible Richard F could offer more advice.

TED

I don't know much about Saracens but in 1975/6 I was maintaining B61 & 81 engines used in RAF ground Support equipment. Oil dilution was a major problem especially with the B61. On the GPU with the B61 the tank was in line with the rocker on the B81 most of the tank was in line with the block. sumps filling with fuel was an every week problem. The solution was to fit an "Oil dilution valve" a stupid name it should have been called an Anti- Oil Dilution valve. It was simply a soleniod operated fuel cut off spliced into the line just after the tank. It solved that problem. But the storey doesn't end there we then had spates of soleniod failure whilst the engine was running it failed in the closed position not something the boys servicing and starting the old Mk1 Victors were too happy about !! then came the multigrade oil which nearly grounded the Mk1 Victor tanker fleet as we saw engines self destructing within days of the new type oil being put in and within 2 weeks we had exhausted the supply system of engines. We reached the point we were modifying B81 engines configured for the MK6 fire truck and fitted them. In short without GPUs ( Ground power units ) then it was a major problem to carry out flight line maint on the aircraft.

The strange smell reminds me of the time I had to do an major overhaul on a Pundit officially know as a Land mark beacon it ran from a mains supply but had its own coventry victor generator. It had been ignored for years and I decided to drain the fuel I nearly threw up we borrowed a glass fuel sampler from the POL boys after 10 minutes of standing it was like a tube of fruit pastilles . How old is your fuel I am finding unleaded starts to go down hill fairly quickly and is worth with valvemaster etc added . Good Luck

TED

Adam I don't see any French in the casualty list ????

I was only twice unlucky enough to be involved face to face with the French Their "don't give a toss about anyone else attitude" nearly cost us an Argosy full of guys . It was only the split second quick thinking opf our loadmaster on another aircraft that saved the day.

TED

Noel certainly looks like a Commer pre heater van I am trying to think where I have some technical detail about it. I would guess that a modification has been carried out to provide a power supply for aircraft engine starting. haven't a clue about the voltage used in German aircraft ... But 28v dc was the UK spec in the early 1950s trolley accs gave 24v and that did the job but once trailer mounted ground power units came along they gave out 28v as an aside for interest, larger aircraft used 28v dc & 112 v DC . then with the MK2 V bombers 28v dc and 200v 3 phase at 400 c.p.s.

TED

Just spoke to my father. Although the Dodges were bought direct from Vauxhall,they werent built there,as dodge is owned by Chrysler. And Vauxhall/Bedford G.M

 

Even he was a bit miffed how they ended up at the Bedford plant,as there were loads there.They were all brand new. Mainly L.H.D. I naturally thought,that with the numbers sitting outside that they were manufactured there.

 

Maybe they had some sought of tie-up with Dodge U.K. All i do know is that they were had for a very,very good price. My father did try to buy some more. But i think someone higher up realised how much they were being sold forand put a block on it.

Being a Luton boy and consequently having an interest in both Bedford and Commer my dad worked for Commer nee Dodge nee Renault from 1940 to 81 minus 3 years in the REs I though I would try and get my head round the Bedford connection .

I phoned RB at Winkliegh you can hear the shudders when you mention RB 44 !!! they put me onto a man that has been there since the first RB 44s were built in fact just after I visited the Winkliegh plant with the RAF in 82.

The original RB 44 was built at 2 sites, those for fire trucks at Winkliegh under the name the RB 44 Apollo and all others at Their plant at Amersham Bucks. These utilised an RB chassis and a Ford A series cab.

THe later RB 44 the MK 2 was on a modified Dodge 50 series chassis and cab. RB produced the steering, axles, transmissions at Winkliegh . THe vehicles were assembled at the Dodge(formerlyCommer) plant at Boscombe Rd Dunstable. I asked if there was any Vauxhall/Bedford connection -use of plant etc an emphatic no !

What I can tell you is the Commer(it will always be the commer plant to me) and the Bedford plant faced each other in Boscombe Rd. I believe the Bedford plant closed in 1983 the Dodge plant survived a few more years. I visited both plants as a kid, the Commer plant being the last in 1960.

Other than being proud of its manufacturing heritage I no longer admit any allegiance to Luton as it seems to have been handed over to the Taliban !! all evidence of the Commer Luton plant at Biscot Rd has long gone, The Bedford plant as Boscombe Rd is now a buisiness park but I am not sure about the Commer plant at Dunstable and of course if this don't pick up soon I think the last traces of Vauxhall will go from Luton.

Regards

TED.

I cant provide pics of the comms pack. But here are a couple of the G.S version........

 

 

 

There was a lot of bad publicity about these when they were in service. I can only report good things about them. My father had 6 pre-production ones of these back in the early 80,s that he had bought direct from Vauxhall/Bedford,s Dunstable plant. They were originally badged as Dodge,before Renault. The original origins are from the U.S.

How did Bedford get into the equation the chassis was built at Winkliegh by Reynolds Boughton inclubing fitting the cab and bodied externally. as illustrated here the cab was dodge later renault, of note the original RB44 that both the Army and RAF had used a Ford A series cab. But your mention of Vauxhall/Bedford at Dunstable has me scratching my head ??

TED

DURHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHhhhhh silly me

TED

Surprised nobody has mentioned it since it was on the news today; 65 years this evening since "Operation Chastise", set off for Germany; and so the Dambusters were born.

16/7 may 1943 I make that 66 years ?

TED

Any sign of coolant in the oil or oil in the coolant? once she is warmed up, remove the rotor arm from the dizzy then take a spark plug out now turn her over on the starter motor any coolant traces ejected from the plug hole ??

TED

ps my money is also on a head gasket

Lucien, please don't think my comment was meant to be derogatory, but I made the statement as part of the effort to convince Dom that his trailer and its contents were not as he was told.

If it wasn't for "well intentioned enthusiasts" such as yourself these forums would be far less interesting. I have added your site to my favourites and when time allows I delve further. Keep up the good work.

If you have any further illustrations of the gen set in RAF service extracts from APs etc I would be very interested

thanks and best wishes

TED

Nigel The feds seem to have their cables muddled a breakaway cable is designed to apply the parking brake and then snap It is not recommended to put it on the ball but it is acceptable.

There is another cable but only for unbraked trailers it is called a secondary coupler. This is designed NOT to break the idea is it keeps the trailer attached to the towing vehicle whilst the towing vehicle brakes to a halt.

http://www.ntta.co.uk/law/trailers/brakes.htm