ted angus

Hanno The scrapyard was filled with hundreds of vehicles , From Bedford QL radio trucks to RLs, Lots of AEC 0853 ex RAF bowsers the list is endless. I went there to photograph all the old WW2 stuff, The GGs were lined up at the furthest point in the yard actually it was a sprawling overgrown piece of scrubland After cutting the unwanted part of the GG bodies, they were being lifted off using an Austin K6 breakdown gantry with its beam set to the max height. I believe the new bodies were recycled from other vehicles. Once the guy taking me around saw I was interested in the GGs it was no longer convenient for me to be there.

It was may 1972 my wife still reminds me of the date I had forgotten she was in the car 8 months pregnant Mnn the trouble our hobbies get us into !

I lived on the northern outskirts of Limassol, a road leading to the main Greek National guard base in that area passed the end of our cul de sac so their vehicles were a common site to us; These gun tractors were rarely seen, but I did see more of them on TV during the civil war.

The photo I posted was taken after their disposal in the same scrapyard as they were constructed !

Some were in light stone but others were in a disruptive pattern. i may have some more piccies I will dig.

TED

yes they used wireless body versions as mobile workshops on bomber bases

You were right on both counts with the guns

TED

It was the Greek Cypriot National guard in 1972, the prototypes appear to have been a product of VASS of Amptill. I saw the locally produced examples being converted at the world famous scrap yard near Larnaca, about a year later I saw a couple towing guns through Limassol; then saw several in anger during the civil war in 1974. After service they ended up in the same scrap yard as they were converted -see attached.

TED

John Blackman, the current editor of CMV is a member of the Forum, maybe he'll be along to answer the points you've raised....

I gave up subscribing under the previous editorship, under the new leadership i bought a couple but now don't even browse it for a free read at Smith's.

TED

hopefully it has attached

Hi Duncan I hadn't considered Varsity should have my Dad crossed with 15th Scottish Div at Xanten. On one of his visits when I was stationed in Germany I took him to the exact spot where his field company (REs ) put an assault bridge accross under fire.

What struck me as odd was the way the aircraft were parked, so I looked to see if Stirlings were used by 38 group in a non towing role. the Pathfinders from 21st Coy dropped from Albemarles for D Day, so I then looked at Market Garden and found the Pathfinders were from 22nd Coy and they were dropped from Stirlings. Of course the picture could have been prior to everything forming up. I have found that the titles accompanying many photos on many of these media resourses websites are often far from accurate; searching last night I found at least one other site with this set and another with a similar set; there's a couple on them with clearly wrong titles.

Still one thing is for certain that is an MW its mark is D/38 and it had a 35 mph speed limit.

I must try and find some RAF piccies from Varsity as ADGB had reverted to the old fighter command mark of F by sept 44 , these things would take weeks if not months to implement so by Varsity it should have been changed on all vehicles and the MW would or should have been sporting F/38.

I recently tracked down an unmolested 1st edition copy of AP 3090 at the TNA Kew, and a kind chap I correspond with who lives near London did some research for me ; attached is the page detailing Command /group markings to add to your file.

Mnn cannot get file to upload its all changed ????????????????????whats happened

regards

TED

looks like views I have seen of TArrant Rushton which was used for d day gliders and tugs

Alan from what I can find Stirlings towed Gliders out of Dunmow, Rivenhall and wethersfield, With Halfax towing gliders from Earls Colne and Tarrant Rushdon.

Something funny is the way the aircraft are parked, normally the gliders were parked nose to tail, with the towing aircraft parked either side at 45 degrees . In the subject picture no room for the gliders ??

I am wondering if notwithstanding the title this may be Market Garden ? there are people dotted around wearing overcoats. Stirlings seem to have been used by the Pathfinders 21st Ind Pathfinder company .

TED

Further to the above, I now reckon the marking is a badly painted D/38, 38 Group glider towing, parachutist duties etc., this makes more sense and fits in with everything else in the picture.

 

Everything except of course what appears to be a chap wearing a Royal Navy type big collar at the left of the group of three men behind the tractor wheel. Any ideas what it actually is he is wearing?

Duncan been trying to ID the drome and been reading a site about 190 sqn at RAF Dunmow A chap who was an electrician on 190 noted a numer of Fleet air arm personel ( tradesmen) were attached to them to bolster manpower as preperations for D Day got underway. So i reckon the chap with the big collar could be one of these salty seadogs ??

TED

Hi Duncan, its D/38 38 Group being the group that supported airborne forces; I am trying to ID the aerodrome the Stirlings towing Horsa gliders operated from 3 of 38 Groups aerodromes.

I am still beavering away at my project, I note D =AEAF in Robertson's book but the letter hasn't appeared in any of the AMOs or the AP 3090 as a Command code; however I have scratched my head previously over the use of D as I have seen other period( around june 44)shots with D in use. AEAF wasn't a Command it was a higher formation. It was composed of 2TAF and Air Defence of Great Britian (ADGB) as it component RAF Commands, we know beyond doubt 2 TAF carried the TAF /** marking and according to AP 3090 AEAF carried AEAF with no / or number. In late 1943 Fighter command was disbanded , some of its sqns ( mainly those in the ground attack-close support role)transferred to 2TAF. A new Command known as ADGB was created , this took in the residue of previously Fighter Command units and also sqns from Bomber Command and Glider Sqns that were going to directly support the landings and subsequent operations from aerodromes in UK. These bomber units mostly with Halifax & Stirling aircraft in the glider towing role formed part of 38 group. Everytime I have seen the D/38 marking I have delved but hit a brick wall, I can only draw the conclusion that D was adopted for a short period by ADGB before they reverted to using F which in late 1944 is promulgated in AP 3090. Unfortunately lots of warts are now apparent in Robertsons book but the access to material is so much easier now we can only continue to consider it still as the "bible" on RAF MT. If I unearth any more on that D or any RAF MW shots I will post them

I think it is a very sad fact that few if any films about the RAF in WW2 are in the least accurate over the vehicles etc they use. I know Brian Baxter (REME museum etc) has torn his hair out many times over the years trying to give a correct steer. I recently saw some pages from Flight magazine archives on the making of the Dam Busters all the vehicles had black wings this was a feature introduced for a few years in 1946 when we reverted to a peacetime colour scheme.

http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1954/1954%20-%201789.html?search=film. the dam busters

TED

Unless in the tactical role Sqns were allocated vehicles from the Station's MT establishment.

617 was not a tactical sqn, So on paper they never had their own vehicles.

You need to choose a date; 617 moved around, formed at Scampton march 1943 then to Coningsby then Woodhall .

Once you choose a date look to see where they were based, then see which group in bomber command they were in at the time.

Off side (UK offside) of the vehicle at the front would be a roundal 9inch dia. above it should be a Command /group marking it will be B/1 or B/3 or B/5 -- although I think during WW2 period 617 was always a 5 group sqn. therefore B/5.

a 9inch yellow bridge plate marked 3 would also be on the front.

On the back would be the command /group mark on nearside, no roundal on the rear but a speed limit warning .

Colours were constantly changing during WW2 but By the time 617 was formed SCC 2 with SCC1a disruptive would have been the most common colour combination, with a pattern to MTP 46. although many vehicles would still be in Khaki Green No 3 with Dark Tarmac distruptive.

TED

........ and I've just noticed, that looks like a 3 Ton version !!

Ian I think I was born 30 years to late; a job needed doing and they got on and did it my Dad was a driver /mechanic in the REs his favourite truck was a White 10 ton 6x6 the wheels were almost as tall as him; he called them the good olde days.

TED

Fyll I know what you mean about using film in the days gone by it was very expensive and no shooting off loads of shots like we do now,

I would guess looking at your shots and Ian's the narrowing is only about 3 to 4 inches per side What do you reckon Ian ???

I haven't forgotten the drawing etc for the 10 ton version scanner is down at the moment but I hope to sort it by the weekend I will also scan the data book sheet/

regards TED

Ted you just dropped a spanner in the works!

 

The internal narrowing at the wheel arches is visible in the photos I posted.

Ian do you have the measurements for the width from the museum exhibit? I would really appreciate a full set of measurements as I am about to start on the model.:bow:

 

Thank you both

 

Fyll

Fyll there is a data plate on the front face of the head in your pictures 3 & 4 did you get a close up.

FYLL & IAN is this a WW2 production 5 ton example or a post war ?? how do we tell between WW2 production and later 5 ton models. ??

TED

Ha Ha!!

 

You never know what's coming in the mail next, like the last batch of 2MT pics :-D

I'll be up all night now watching !!!

TED

Hi Ian no the thread I am thinking of was about full trailer not a semi. tearing my hair out mind not much to loose !! These threads about the RAF stuff are great, Come what may I check this forum and your site every day, pure noastalgia 11

TTFN TED

Ian, in my set of APs 2782 in trailer section item 10 it states Taskers 5 ton semi trailer long low loader but its not a Queen Mary but a 16 wheel flat fuselarge trailer shown with a front bogie attached

Hi Les if its the index that quotes item 10 as being a 5 ton QM but the actual leaf is different then this sounds like a replacement item 10 leaf was issued but the AP custodian failed to amend the index with the replacement item's correct title. Just a thought mate . I have searched everywhere but cannot find a leaf on the 5 ton. Bart Vandeveen in his Kalidascope of Bedford vehicles states; the 5 ton is dimensionally very similar to the 3 ton version, it is 6 inches wider, had a slight narrowing of the internal wheel arch dimension to accomadate the larger tyres 13.50 x 20 viz 10.50 x 20.

Gents

Bart also notes there was a 3 ton short low loader; any clues ??

On a slightly different tack there was a thread on HMVF about a trailer lying derelict and at some point pictures of the fuselage trailer you mention were posted, I spent ages last night searching for that thread can anyone help a senile olde man in his hour of need please !!!

regards from soggy freezing Scotland

TED

Richard it even has the square lift up flap to gain access to the rad cap looks like a cab graft Mnnnn !!

Incidentally if anyone has a copy of the AP 2782A, page entry, for "Tasker 5 Ton, Long Low Loading Semi-Trailer" I would be most grateful of a copy

 

But alas, as this thread is going, I suspect no one has :-(

I wish !!!! I have the later 10 ton which came in 2 lengths , and a choice of widths.

when you send me a job card to get your current build into the GEF paintshop I will send you a fantastic plan for the later 10 ton version !!!

TED

It is my understanding that there is no difference in length (40ft) between the 3 & 5 Ton versions, the 3 Ton version has 3 'crossed' sections before the wheel, where as the 5 Ton has 3 and a half, but, the 'crossed' sections on the 5 Ton version are at a more acute angle.

 

That being said there were many variants made, but to my knowledge these involved bodies rather than length.

 

The overall length issue (inc prime mover) is still somewhat debatable as Taskers original poster depicts a 5 Ton variant with a Spitfire onboard being pulled by an S Type Bedford with '60 Feet Long' boards on !!! This would make the distance from bumper to 5th wheel area of the S type approx 20ft !!

 

1,862 3 Ton & 1,975 5 Ton versions were in operation by the end of the 2nd WW, to say the figures are about the same there's very few examples of the 3 Ton left.

 

The old Newark Air Museum one was 3 Ton

East Kirby is 5 Ton

Yorkshire Air Museum is 5Ton

Hendon is 5 Ton

Duxford is 5 Ton

Eden Camp is 5 Ton

2MT (Wittering, Historic Fleet) is 5 Ton

 

.......Oh, and the one used in 'Reach for the Sky' was 5 Ton

 

I might get round to finishing the 1/15th scale model I started ages ago !!

 

[ATTACH=CONFIG]21032[/ATTACH]

 

Ian

Hi Ian, just been looking at a document re Taskers published post WW2 it intimates that both trailers were the same length as it says " although the warning boards normally said 60ft , irrespective of tractor and trailer combination, the Queen Mary unit was never more than 55ft long.

Fantastic model watch out for turmites though !! that desrves a nice glass case.

Regards

TED

I also meant to say Fyll this is a post was trailer it has the tapered rear side iron work.

Mike I forgot we already had lots on the QM in the thread

Jessie go to the Trailers thread; pretty sure all the dimensions are on there

TED

Fyll, I should know but but getting old you lnopw !!! I am sure its a hand brake for the trailer ???

TED

Can anyone tell me what differences there were between the 3 Ton and 5 Ton Queen Mary trailers? I'm about to start building a 1/76 scale diorama using two of the Airfix kits ( after I've finished Bodges 1/35 Flying Control truck! ), and was curious as to the differences whether it was a major redesign or just a strengthening of components and axel.

The original QM was 3 ton, towed by Commer 8 ft wheelbase tractor units, then came the Bedford OX tractor, the 5 ton trailer was slightly bigger, it had a different head arrangement to the original 3 ton version, The Bedford OX was a bit underpowered for a fully laden 5 ton QM so the Crossley 4x4 tractor was introduced to tow the 5 ton trailer; but it seems the Bedford was still used with the 5 ton. . Then came a 10ft wheelbase Commer , beware the Bedford OX in the Airfix kit is of a totally different scale to the trailer, it is far too small, when I get round to building a Bedford OX I will use a Bedford OY Chassis cab from BW models and reduce the chassis to suit.

The Airfix trailer has a lattice construction almost identical to the 3 ton but its head is more akin to a 5 ton trailer, A commer 8 ft tractor is availible from MMS models.

In the early WW2 years salvage and repair recovery units used mainly tasker 3 ton flatbed trailers 2 lengths 20 ft and 33ft, then came the QM

The 33ft is also availible from MMS . Do a Google there are lots of QM piccies there is a whole series on GETTY ; I have read various posts on the QM in the Airfix tribute forum most is myth or hogwash

TTFN TED

No use to you Mr W best you donate it to Balmullo Fire & Light Rescue Service !!

Thanks for sharing

TED