ted angus

Mike I had been looking for some modern piccies but got diverted; Last night I was looking for WW2 aerial shots of Leuchars where I spent the last 14 years of my service not only did I find some cracking aerial shots but a ground shot that is applicable to this thread. The attached shows Hgr 55 my office was the window to the right of the blue sign. The other shot is the other end of the same hanger and shows 2 TRACJACKS these jacks are the original from WW2 I think the year was 1942. Also that may be of interest, the station originally had 3 paired Belfast Trussed hangers and a Single. One pair and the single were demolished in the building work undertaken to accomadate Tornado in the 1980s.

Hgr 55 ; in one half, some of the workshops of General Engineering & MT maintenance Flight. The other half is the aircraft wash bay. The other paired hanger is No 57 and it is occupied by the Regt HQ and a support sqn of the REs TA. who share it with 612 sqn RAux AF a MASH type unit. These hangers are the oldest in military use and pre date the formation of the RAF. So I nominate the crash recovery TracJacks as the oldest piece of kit still in service and the hangers as the oldest pair still in operational military use ??

TED

Dom no D hats no sitting in corners you said in your opening message you were new to the forums, digging into things and getting answers are a fantastic aspect of them. I served a lifetime man & boy in the RAF in the General Engineering and MT worlds but everyday I learn something new, I have gleaned a lot of knowledge and made some likeminded cyber friends.

Where did you get your info re the Hippos ? Keep us posted re the gen set We have all learnt something thing from this thread i.e. where some of the gen sets went when the RAF had no future requirement.

REGARDS

TED

currently raging at this useless governments treatment of the Gurkhas !!

My Grandad was on a special ops unit in Burma in 1945. He was with the RAF on a mobile Radar unit positioned between the front lines in what was technically no mans land. One of the vehicles supplied to his unit was an American DUKW fitted for radar operations by the RAF and operated by them. My point is that although the DUKW was origianally supplied to the army, it was modified by the RAF for this purpose and operated by the RAF. I'm guessing it's the same thing with the trailer. The war department number refers to an army trailer, taken by the RAF and fitted for use with the no2 genny set as mentioned, probably in 1944 (going by the engine number on the gen set and the WD number on the trailer chassis, and the specific use was to power the type 14 radar. The Leyland Hippo also entered service in 1944 and did make it into europe before the wars end. I don't know if these radar units were active with the leyland hippo from day one, that is something i will need to find out.

In regards to anwering my own question, perhaps it is not fully answered yet. But my question was 'what is it and when was it built, what was it's purpose and is it ex RAF'. If the trailer shown on the Electrokinetca website was number 63 ,built in 1945 (going by engine number) and is exactly the same as mine then i would assume that mine, being number 27, was built in 1944. Type 14 radar units were introduced in 1944/45 which is exactly the dates that these units were built. i Don't yet know if mine was altered post was for X-ray operations, i will find out what modifications have been done and that will tell me more. It is more interesting than i originally thought though! I need to find out if these trailers saw service and if so, where and with what unit.

Dom, Sorry, with all respect to operations in the Far East things were it little more regimented in Europe.

I don't subscribe to your theory : yes equipment moved between the RAF and Army, I have seen both in WW2 info and during my own service, one service running on anothers number plates . If this was a case of a gen set being bolted onto a flat bed trailer fair enough, but this trailer was obviously bespoke ; a contract would have been raised and at that time a plate added to give it its new identity. It would also have had the Army plate removed because it would no longer have been the type of trailer noted on the WD plate.

You can find the history of the type 14 on various sites. In its proto mobile form it was initially mounted on a trailer for use in UK, then as preperations for D Day took place Radar units to equip 83 & 84 groups were formed, their equipment being purpose procured. . The type 14 for these convoys was mounted on Austin K6 6x4 chassis, a handful may have migrated to FWD HAR 1 chassis. The gen set stores ref 42X 150 appears to have been soley procured for these convoys especially the type 14. I listed in message 5 the chassis that carried these sets; note in thread 5 I also quoted 42X 150 as the stores ref for the sets built to support the type 14 All this infiormation was from RAF records I hold.

The MK1 &11 Leyland Hippo that saw service with the RAF in WW2 was not recorded as being used in these radar convoys, it was a 10ton load carrier used by the RAF MT companies especially in the UK , middle east and later Europe.

In the early 1950s the RAF aquired a new generation of mobile radars, this is where the Leyland Hippo comes into the equation The next generation of Hippo was the type 19H/7 ( to the layman a Mk 3) virtually every truck in the new generation convoys was a Hippo except the power supply vehicle. The new type 14 Mk 7 (RVT 501 Mk 1) & 8 (RVT type 502 Mk1), plus the type 13 (MK6 & 7) and the type 15 (MK 5) were all mounted on Hippos, EACH required a 50kva to fullfill its needs. These gen sets were Leyland Magnicons, mounted in Signal Shells type P MK1 on Matador chassis they were designated RVT type 550 MK1.

So at this point the 20KVA mounted in the chassis I have mentioned would have been redundant for their procured purpose and would have been availible for transfer to other purposes including with budgetery adjustment transfer to other ministrys. The Hippo mounted radar convoys were still at their peak when I joined in in 1964, The Matadors with the 50 KVA and other size gen sets were still in the contingency stores in Cyprus when I was there at the beginning of the civil war in 1974; indeed we were still using some of the demounted sets from the Matadors in Germany in the early 1990s.

I digress I will end my contribution to this thread now. Richard gave you the contract history of your trailer, I have given you a potted history of the 20KVa set and the type 14. I can see you are clinging to the hope that your trailer in its current form is ex RAF, I think Richard and I have given you enough evidence based on official records to convince you that it was a marriage conducted in the early 1950 to produce a trailer mounted gen set for the NHS. Please don't put total belief in things such as Electrokinetica , some very usefull info but lots of it is far from accurate its just the work of well intentioned enthusiasts.

I would be interested to learn where you got the info re Hippos and vast convoys came from

TED

The answer to this is on Electrokinetca web site gallery :

Firstly lets recap: We identified the trailer by it WD (ARMY) number and Richard from the WD number identified its original form and its contract; It was an Army cargo trailer.

We have identified the Gen set and we know they were to support Type 14 Radar in RAF service.

WE know from photos on the Electrokinetca web that the switchboard was modified to allow its use to power an X ray facility Also in the gallery is a photo of it in the livery of the NHS mass X ray unit they toured the country in the late 1940s early 1950s in an attempt to erradicate TB .

So My conclusion is your gen set is as previously stated ex RAF Radar Convoy, the Trailer is an Ex Army cargo trailer.

With modifications to both trailer and gen set they have been married together to provide a power trailer for an NHS mobile mass X ray unit

Richard over to you

TED

ps that Electrokinetca site is difficult to enter !

Sorry to prove you wrong Ted but i think i've just hit the nail on the head!

I've just found this on a website!

 

"Most of the Lister generating sets supplied the War Department were built at their Dursley factory to one of a handful of standard designs but there were exceptions. For example, the Air Ministry Mk.2 20kVA set shown here was not assembled in Dursley because Lister provided only the 38/4 engine and bed. The electrical end consists of a Metropolitan-Vickers 20kVA 3-phase alternator equipped with a comprehensive switchboard including Tonum automatic carbon pile regulator. The principal application of this model was to power Type 14 Search Radar units and similar, for which purpose the switchboard was specifically arranged. A Leyland Hippo lorry would carry the generator as part of the vehicle complement making up the radar outfit codenamed "Vast Convoy". These sets were designed to survive under adverse conditions; Hand-starting capability made operation independent of troublesome batteries; the radiator was generously proportioned to enable continuous running at full power in high ambient temperatures; a variable compression system enabled reliable starting in the cold. The generator windings were insulated to a high specification and protected from dirt ingress by an air filter. The electrical output is rather unusual and specific to the application. Although the alternator has a three phase star-connected winding the phase-neutral voltage is only 132V, giving a phase-phase voltage of 230V for delta applications, therefore the star point is not brought out. The output of the set can be delivered into two equal 230V single phase loads sharing a common terminal, in a format neither strictly single or two-phase as a phase difference of 120 degrees exists between them. A transformer was provided amongst the switchgear to step up part of the output power to conventional 230 / 400 volt three phase configuration.

 

I think i might have answered my own question! I still need more information, but atleast i know what it is now! The one in the picture was built in 1945 and is number 63. Mine is number 27 but i don't know how many were built in total.

You have left me totally confused If it was supplied to the War Dept it was for the Army The Air Ministry via MoS supplied the RAF ??

Type 14 was an RAF radar first introduced 44/45. The Leyland Hippo used in Radar Convoys would normally have been early 1950s.

War Dept is not like the all incompassing MoD of today War Dept was ARMY Air Ministry was RAF

I don't think you have answered your own question your quote starts "most Lister Sets supplied to the WD but there were exceptions For example ( i.e. an example of the exceptions) the AM MK2 -----

so the writer of the quote is citing an exception which is for AM, with final assembly at Metro Vickers' to support Type 14 radar (RAF) carried in a Leyland Hippo . You requote 42x which is an RAF stores ref if it was supplied to the WD it would not be 42x .

TED

JP 4 was the model used in the RAF types I mentioned earlier, Picture attached.

Just had a good look at your album , The more pictures I see the more I am convinced this is a 2nd or even 3rd life marriage. An ex Army trailer with an ex RAF gen set. The area under the engine is a trap for oil and debris, the ironwork onto which it is mounted is showing signs of unused holes. Most gen set of that size and age had a high mounted fuel tank to gravity feed the engine. the high tank would be manually replened from drums using a hand pump .

My thought is ; this is a marriage that has seen a lot of hard work to provide a moblie generator, with additional/replacement electrical items to keep it running in its civillian role ??????????

TED

Of course the alternate original use for the gene set could have been as part of a comms /radar convoy mounted in a Matador, Austin K6, FWD HAR 1 , FWD SU-COE or Fordson WOT1

Is there a KVA rating on the panel anywhere.

I can tell you 42X 150 was a Lister 20KVA set,

TED

Morning gents, Les, the gene is definately RAF as it has an RAF stores ref number 42X 156 & 160 one number could be the gene the other the control panel ???

The trailer has an WD i.e. Army reg number X5867156. ????

I wouldn't be as bold as to say this is NOT what you have been told; but I feel this is 2 totally unrelated items married together. Runway lighting standy sets were normally not to far from the ATC tower or watch office in a shed or hut. It certainly looks the size of set for a back up as often on standby power not all lamps were illuminated.

Tony you mention a W S 10 trailer sorry I don't have a clue what on is.

Its certainly a very interesting bit of kit.

I would be looking for evidence that they started out as one item. Is there evidence of floor reinforcment for the skids, was the body built with

ventilation louvres in the correct place fuel tank ! exhaust out let that sort of thing.

Les I am currently trying to get access to the 1944 site record plan of a certain airfield that may reveal the standard building type used to house standby sets.

TED

Very interesting indeed

TED

Not a lot of effort on that handle Nigel and reposition the guide onto the Rcy to give the carrier driver a better view !

listening out.

Gary I was there 98 to I think 2001, Nigel Watson John Webster the late Bill Ireland to name just a few.

I keep in touch with a fair number of SMVG people but don't pay my subs anymore I joined when it was a preservation group not a dressing up brigade who don't know a grease nipple from a milk nipple but I will shut up on that subject now. --Incoming !!

Hopefully we will meet at a show up here one day.

TTFN

TED

ps who was the TA Officer at Dunfermline with the Matador ?

How many are still around

1942 CRASH TENDER SPITFIRE MUSEUM MANSTON

1942 CRASH TENDER FIRE MUSEUM MASTON

1942 CRASH TENDER LINCOLNSHIRE AVATION CENTER

CREW BUS LINCOLNSHIRE AVATION CENTER

BALLOUN WINCH DUXFORD

DENTAL UNIT RAF COSFORD

1945 CRASH TENDER ?

GS CARGO ?

Any more around Or WOT 3s

T CORBIN

Tony , the last show I went to in England was Bletchley Park 1998, I am pretty sure there was a WOT1a/1 with an RVT signals body. I will try and find the box of photos I took that weekend.

Attached is a shot of the 1945 Monitor type which is in preservation, I was at RAF Locking 64-66 and we shared the airfield at Weston S Mare with a helicopter firm either Bristol or Westland. We had our own crash trucks on the drome but the civvies had this 45 monitor LYN 48 and an Austin K2 ambulance.

Somewhere in UK there is at least 1 restored WOT3, I saw a photo recently on another group of it; before it was restored I tried to buy it but couldn't secure storage up here, I was going to rebuild it into an RAF fire tender.

Finally there are currently 5 WOT1-WOT1A/1 examples here at Balmullo,

1942 crash tender,

1942 Weeton type crash tender

1944 monitor conversion

1945 Monitor

1942 RAF heavy ambulance which unfortunately is squeezed out of the photo.

TTFN TED

This piccy is in the book on the history of 51 MT co RAF, the officer in the CMP is convoy commander Pilot Officer Carter, They are leaving Libya for Tunisia. The book is called Desert Wheels published by Woodfield Publishing, a great little book which I think will interest you and Mike and the others who are into the old RAF stuff.

TED

Comments welcomed Shot taken 23rd Jan 1943.

Mike this is IWM CH 8326 taken during a photo session at the MT school 9-10 dec 1942. according to the IWM site..

This is a really clean copy did you spend money ??

TED

See you don't want to upset the Blue Jobs, Gary !!!!

We have met I believe Dunfermline transport sqn open days

TED

Thats taken at RAF Cardington note the truck is still running on its Middlesex reg and shows no RAF serial. It is now apparent that many batches of these Fordsons including the balloon Winches ran on their civvy reg through out their service. I have found a Kings regulation dated 1941 which states one a vehicle is issued with a identification number it will not and must not be changed or replaced.

TED

Mike, that looks like the fixed square platform, we would normally put a layer of sand bags accross the top. the one with the turntable is almost identical, the trackjack has a L shaped jack head; The ones in service today are in the main from WW2 and shortly after.

TED

Mike never saw the thread but I am a relative newbie, however we used and the RAF & RN still use tracked trailers. Which dolly would be an appropriate name. they come in several variaties some have a hydraulic jack built in , others have a platform, some have a platform on a turntable arrangement. All referred to as track jacks but in reality only the ones with jacks should have been given the name tow bars about 6 to 10 ft long platforms about 6ft by 6ft I will look for some picies

TED

I guess that paiting oil on the bowsers in such a prominent way and in such large lettering was to avoid confusion, so I guess there were probably similar Bowsers with AVGAS or petrol in the vicinity that could be confused.

Mike even in recent years the wrong bowsers have been hooked up to aircraft, and wrong bowsers have been used refuelling both vehicles and GSE its so bad I have been involved in investigations where even the wrong oils have been put in vehicles and aircraft from 5 litre cans. Currently there are standard markings which incorporate colour codes both for bowsers, both vehicle type and trailers ; But it still happens .

When those 450 gal jobs came into service they were adequate fuel bowsers along with a few slightly larger trucks for the majority of aircraft then in service. a 5 gallon drum of oil with a hand pump was enough to replen an aircraft, the same went for glycol. The big bowsers came in with the larger bombers and oil drums were often mounted on trailer with a hand pump.

I am willing to bet that even with the big OIL on the side there were more than one instance of it being put in the Hi Octane tank.

In recent times I have noted piston aircraft filled with Avtur aviation turbine fuel , hydraulic oil put into tornado engines, unbelievable. Its compounded at night and /or working with sodium bulb lighting which gives false colour indications.

Later in the thread Howard asks about colour, I would suggest any passed to lease lend would change hands in its current RAF finish and could later be repainted by its new users.

The picture posted by Mike of the MT needed to support one squadron contains a truck I have being trying for ages to get info on. In the centre is a truck loaded with cylinders, that will be the oxygen replenishment lorry, when I joined up Bedford S types undertook that role. The truck looks like a Dodge, the RAF used the Dodge in many roles crewbus crash fire water tender to name 2 more but the oxygen truck is one I would like to find other views of so if anyone should come accross any thank you !

TED

Having jumped out of RAF balloons for over 20 years as a Para Jump Instructor (until they replaced them all with skyvans- basically a transit van with wings) these were ex barrage balloons and the Brit/RAF only ever used Hydrogen (Begians used Helium) and they do need regular top ups.

 

The problem is the certificates of conformity re cables, winches, use of hydrogen (especially in public areas) and restriction of height (we jumped at 800 max) add on the fact that they are very prone to lightening risk and cannot be flown in some wind conditions above about 13 knots etc etc.

 

Then the insurance you would need if you have a breakaway (happened a few times that I have seen) and said balloon wrapped itself round an aircraft etc. Also they usually had height valves that opened/burst a panel to let gas escape then if the balloon came down onto someone or on a motorway etc - risk assessments and a huge PLI etc. Is it worth the hassle?

 

Just my twopence worth from years of being a balloonatic

 

Regards

 

Gary

So before the TA you were obviously a SNCO or WO PTI in the RAF ?? who of course are the only qualified PJIs in the UK armed forces .

Edward B Angus B.E.M.

WO RAF retired

that photo is in Malta and not Khartoum

Mr MHVT of Malta I know fine well the photo I posted of the fire trucks is RAF Luqa in Malta I was there !! please read again what I said

""""""I have a photo of vehicles in Khartoum in the early 1950 with complete white cabs """ a totally different photo that you have not seen I was making the point that in addition to white cab tops the RAF had in certain places at certain times painted whole vehicle cabs white to reflect heat. I hope you understand now what I mean.

TED

See what they were up against - tracked armour!

 

H.

Gents prior to the UN peacekeeping force forming in 1964, A large number of British units from the RAF Regt and the Army were rushed to the Island to basically protect the turkish enclaves from armed incursions by the Greek cypriots including former EOKA freedom fighters and elements of the Greek Cypriot national guard. amonst the Army units were elements of 16 para brig including 1 para. This force was officially known as TRUCE FORCE, its role was taken over by a UN mandated force in march 1964. I believe all these scenes predate that the airborne marking is clear to see. The scene beyond the picture of 25BK54 is a typical Turkish cypriot village, the Pig and its attendant crew would be there protecting that village. Many Turkish villages were wiped off the map. Hence the draped Union Flag shown as a sign of neutality. I would suggest the other scenes are Greek Cypriot road blocks

after some incident or other. In these scenes are a Greek Cypriot police sgt , a member of the greek cyp national guard in battle dress and and numbers of irregulars. The scout car is almost certainly national guard with the bulldozer being the Eoka irregulars. For those who would like to find out more about this fatastic island that has had far more than its share of bloodshed I have posted a link below.

TED

http://www.britains-smallwars.com/cyprus/Davidcarter/UNFICYP.html

ITS IWM E 2733

Lorries carrying RAF personnel …more↓ during the retreat from Greece, 3 May 1941. less↑

I was a few days out but I knew I had seen it before

Greece april 1940 the aircrew must have run ouit of tiffin !!

TED

The RAF one is a quick evacuation from somewhere possibly Greece I have seen that picture in the last couple of days on a site

TED

Mine was the Dinky Bedford Army lorry as a former Driver/Mech in 279 field Co RE my Dad gave me every encouragement !! I later learnt to drive on an RL

TED I