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Very late production "68 pattern" 8415 coded DPM trousers (circa 1982-84) have a revised trouser lining, that is actually sewn-in to the seams instead of the earlier "tab" arrangement......plus, the side (hip) pockets are visible inside the lining......this was done to improve the comfort/weight/drying-out time, etc.......earlier 8415-coded strides (1977-78 to 1982) are as per the 68 pattern in terms of lining.......:-)

I bet you example 2 garments are "8415" coded......

It's best to have a large collection to hand and to study the garments.......really the only way to gain knowledge..... Colour is a good indication, but not pattern......many of the 60 and 68 pattern DPM garments do not have "dots" in the print........yet some later production does and in a newer material too..... In the mid-1970's the MoD experimented with a new mixed-cotton fabric for the combat suit, as the earlier 100% cotton sateen fabric was considered too heavy in summer and when wet, plus shrank if soaked or washed in a machine..... The new fabric was a mix of either 50/50 cotton-synthetic or 70/30 cotton-synthetic, so when printed with the cammo pattern the fabric produced slightly different colours, feel, etc...... But as with many things, old stocks were used up first, so pure cotton sateen continued in use by some manufacturers through to the early 1980's........ The "68 pattern" suit (smock, trousers, hood & cap) were all subject to this modification around 1977-78.....and with it came a new NSN for the smock and trousers (changing from 8404 to 8415)....but not the cap or hood, which continued to use the original NSN regardless of the fabric from which constructed........and the 68 pattern designation was quietly dropped around this time for the smock and trousers.......it's also worth noting that the DPM cap and hood were not officially introduced until 1972...so not really 68 pattern......mind you, the matching smock and trousers were not introduced until 1971...... So to date the smock and trousers at least...if marked "8405" then it is from 71 to 77-78, and "8415" thereafter until 1984..... DPM aircrew suits, some sniper smocks, and some para smocks continued to use the earlier heavy sateen cloth through to the mid-1980's, the aircrew suit actually continuing to use this material right up to the present......although the DPM print is now much, much darker and more "current" in pattern......

In the mid-1980's I actually went up to a bloke at a petrol garage wearing a late-pattern Denison in great condition.....I simply said to him "£20 for the jacket mate ?!!".....he bit my arm off...!!! Said it was his dad's and he'd been given it to wear on the building site...!!! Mind you, you might get a smack nowadays asking a bloke to take off his strides...... !!!!!

Thanks Jason ! Quite correct !!! Although I'm HQ staff so deal with the strategic side of things as opposed to the front-line (I've done my time there !)........mind you, the office side of things is no picnic.....more papercuts than usual, a particularly nasty photocopier jam to deal with today, plus at one point I nearly had to put my coffee down....

I have a suspicion that these were part of the jungle-issue kit (see Tropical Uniforms of WW2 by Brayley)....first introduced circa 1944-45.............although eventually, they filtered their way into European use......... The cold-weather pully was still the wartime heavy-knit ribbed sweater.......usually without patches, a drawcord neck and in a distinct brown-shade....... Later issues added khaki-drill patches to the elbows and cuff-edging, and later still matching patches to the shoulders.......it wasn't until 1969-70 that the venerable green-colour ribbed wooly-pully first appeared (1968 pattern) with matching green-denim patches.....:-)

I always smile when I hear about SIB sneaking around..........as a former service plod and with over 25 years in the civvy equivalent, the reality is there's actually bugger-all SIB can do to stall-holders touting semi-suspicious goods in the UK....they are not "Constables" therefore do not have the jurisdiction to seize, demand, or order anything against anyone not subject to military regs..........usually, the route around this is to mount a "joint operation" with civ-pol or MoD-pol whom do have such powers to seize goods, etc.......... I guess at any one time, be it military events, Ebay, etc, at least 20% of stuff offered for sale has originated via dubious means........but at the end of the day it's all down to proof, evidence, etc..........unless one has 200+ boxes of 2011-dated rat-packs for sale in an enormous pile the odd pair of MTP underpants is hardly likely to be worth the time and effort....but there again, in the weird world of today you never quite know.......:-\

Even contaning just 7 feathers, you could never get the b*&$%@d rolled up tightly enough into it's built-in pouch.....and always when you were in a bloody hurry......

This happens on a fair bit of 70s - 80s pu-nylon kit....such as the older non-goretex waterproofs....and is almost impossible to cure.......only way may be removal of the finish..... I liked the old 58 sleeping bag.....but never use the nylon detachable liner !! I did (once) and awoke in the morning with the bloody thing completely wrapped around me....not to mention finding myself alive with static for hours afterwards.... The modern poly-filled bag, with compression sack, is also really good....and if used with a goretex bivi-bag is pretty useful.... The issue jungle bag is also good, and can be found new at really good prices......

Hi Mark.....I'm not certain that 58 was manufactured in anything other than green.......the RAF and Navy tended to use older patterns such as (RAF) P25 & 37 belts & holsters in blue & white, and the Navy similar.........the 43-44 pattern Browning Hi-Power holster however, seems to have been made in khaki, white and possibly RAF blue post-war...but as for belts...?....and 37 web gear was still made up to the 1970's.......

Good ol' Sabre Sales in Southsea had a pile of these frames in the famous webbing room until very recently....I expect they are still there........the 44 webbing section also carried many of the straps for this thing, mainly mint condition (there were loads of them).......check out the really good "British Jungle Webbing" & "British Post War Webbing" books, plus the official 44 webbing instruction booklet that can usually be found on Ebay as a repro.......loads of details and illustrations of this item, how to fit it and all the component parts.....officially termed a "Manpack carrier"....

So I heard....:red:

When serving in the RAF Plod on "SD 814" duties (makes me still shudder today :cry:) the kit issue was standard "skeleton" '58 order........everyone was equipped with a Sterling with a mag fitted plus one in the pouch......no special mag pouches ever seen or issued......the spare mag used to rattle around uncontrollably usually resulting in at least one of the Flight losing a round or two each shift........ Mind you, we also had a few LMG's issued so the odd individual had the spare 58 pouch stuffed with at least 2 LMG mags........the other usually containing a bag of crisps, mars bar, and a small paperback of the adult variety to while away the hours on stag.......:-)

The parade or barrack dress nylon belt was actually supplied and cut from a roll to size by the QM ! The buckles were added from stock.........the nylon version of the 58 pattern belt is a dead copy of the webbing variety but in a woven nylon fabric and quite soft and flexible, unlike the rigid barrack dress belt......

During the very early 1970s the British Army introduced a set of web equipment in green nylon. This set is often termed the "1972 pattern" although items I have in the collection show that the set was manufactured between 1971 and 1973..... There are a few odd photos showing the set in use in field trials and a couple of articles in Soldier magazine of the period stating that the set was intended for universal issue by 1975-76....though this clearly never occurred..... The basic 72 pattern set comprises a pair of ammo & utility pouches with a built-in waist belt, a yoke very similar (but not identical) to the 58 pattern, plus a rear haversack.......I've recently been able to build up 3 complete sets of this rare equipment, so thought I'd share my collecting experience.... The pouches can still be found (Sabre Sales and SOF Military have some, plus Silverman's) although the left side appears far easier to find than the right !). SOF have left pouches, plus MINT yokes (@ £10) whilst Silverman's have pouches and the odd rear-pack (@ £20)......Sabre have the pouches only, mainly the left......This set cannot be put together properly if you are missing any of the component parts because everything attaches to everything else !!! Worth getting a set together now before it all disappears completely.......all items are dated, NSN marked and all from the trial period from the early 1970s...... If you want to find the rare 1970's NYLON 58 webbing, then try Silverman's...they have belts, kidney pouches, left & right ammo pouches and yokes at VERY reasonable prices.....most of the kit is used but again, from the trial of the late 1970s, dated (1977) and NSN marked......they have no poncho rolls or waterbottle carriers though, and the large pack was apparently not produced in nylon..........acquire whilst you can...!

As time marches ever-onwards, there are a few odd items that I've noticed may just be worth picking up...... 1st pattern British DPM desert cammo clothing, almost identical to the old tropical clothing......go for mint items if possible.. And on a similar vein, the DPM desert cammo heavyweight " '92" pattern combat smock that is a dead copy of the more common European cammo variety......thoughts are that this item saw very brief production and use before going out in favour of the CS 95 desert smock...... Older British '68 pattern woolley pullys without eppaulettes, with 100% cotton-denim patches and a looser knit overall than later models....... DMS ankle boots in larger sizes in new condition......I still have a spare pair as issued to me in 1983 complete with the card instruction label up in the loft somewhere....! Early (1960's dated) S6 respirators....... MK1 NBC smocks, trousers and hoods, far less common than the later (hood-attached) MK2............ Anyone else have any thoughts on this subject ?

White-enamelled mugs prevailed throughout WW2 (and beyond).....the brown-colour version was introduced around 1944-45 as part of the new tropical clothing & equipment issue (alongside aluminium soap tins, incidentally).....it is doubtful if any brown-mugs actually saw service, at least in Europe, before the end of the war although they did become commonplace during the post-war years..... The waterbottle was indeed originally intended to be carried in the small pack, but in reality the volume of kit carried by the average soldier resulted in this rarely occuring......

Just offering my own thoughts ! I certainly think that we cannot overlook the new MTP clothing in discussion because it is the next generation in the 50-odd year development of British combat clothing......... But I am also personally mindful that it is often essential for peace of mind to ensure the provenance of anything acquired for the collection...... It is sometimes the case that MoD suppliers and the MoD itself dispose of "overruns" of surplus stock of items onto the market, in some instances before an item has been universally issued such is the irony of the world we live in ! But certain things, such as MTP, to the best of my knowledge has not (yet) been sanctioned for official disposal (though it won't be long I guess).....and I can recall only a few months ago now seeing some new MK7 combat helmets for sale on Ebay about the same time as the thing began to be introduced on the front line !! This isn't really a new situation......I recall that during the 1970's it was near-nigh impossible to buy DPM combat clothing other than some very worn, slashed, repaired trousers and smocks.......in fact, you couldn't even find 'em in surplus shops until at least 1979-80......

The official line is that no issue MTP gear has been released onto the surplus market (yet) through MoD disposals.....yet Fleabay shows a completely different picture..... Buyer beware......!

Quite correct Jon....70s issue are in numbered sizes whereas 1980s onwards issue are metric sizing......there are some variations in the fabric but overall it is the same high-quality cotton windproof gaberdine...the variations depending largely on manufacturer and age....

Both the green and DPM versions of the full-zip 63 pattern windproof suit were "official".....eg: ordered under official MoD contracts and allocated NSN's......most DPM windproof smocks carry the "A/78 etc" contract number, as do my recently acquired green trousers........ Privately-purchased items rarely feature any such references...... By the way, thanks for the book plug Dave !!

WW2 anoraks Dave..??? Did they exist...????!!!!! :red:

Great images Dave, thank you ! And welcome to the Forum !!! We have a "Mexican Stand-off".....you want my strides and I want your smock !!!!!!! This proves that the 63 pattern windproof first appeared in green and thereafter in DPM........I wonder why they didn't continue with the windproof cotton-gaberdine fabric though in the DPM version ? This didn't reappear until the mid-1970's when the new model SAS smock and trousers were introduced...??

These are indeed the correct "SAS" pattern windproof trousers. They were introduced during 1974-75 along with the smock and remained in production until (incredibly) the early 2000's........The arctic windproof trousers (and smock) appeared a couple of years after this around 1976-77 and whilst the smock is similar to the "SAS" version the trousers bear little similarity........a glut of surplus NOS SAS-pattern DPM windproof trousers were on the market until recently in large waist sizes too ! (36")....all late production, I bought around 5 pairs....you CAN still find them in some dealers stocks today....

Apart from the sizing change the tropical clothing remained largely unchanged until the early 1990's when some stuff was produced in a new material that was supposedly softer, lighter and more comfortable to wear.....frequently referred to as "tea-bag" material, it was not very durable.........some of this production saw the left-sleeve pen pocket changed to a conventional type with a buttoned flap.....