Roy Larkin

??????????? have you not noticed there's only a fixed number of hours per day? Your rate of progress has worn me out and I'm only drinking coffee or ale while reading and enjoying it.

There's a 1910 with Royal Mail body in CF Klapper's British Lorries 1900-45.

Thanks Alan.

French or Belgian? Right hand drive but that wasn't too uncommon with French vehicles at the time. Looks quite substantial as well with quite a high bonnet line. Any ideas welcome.

My instinct is WW2, not WW1 but the more I find out the more I know that instinct is very prone to being proved wrong. I've looked at the records of 8 of the 48 Motor Ambulance Convoys and several Auxiliary ambulance companies and have never seen any mention of these boxes. I've never seen them in photos either and they look large enough to be visible if mounted on the outside of the ambulance. They are too large to be carried inside. They don't form part of the establishment of equipment for motor ambulances. Horse ambulances don't appear to have any more room available for boxes than motor ambulances. One possibility is they were used to carry supplies from central stores to hospitals and Field Ambulances. Ambulances were used as delivery vans as much as for carrying people and did a milk round of local field ambulances and hospitals carrying messages and supplies on a daily basis. But why American boxes?

I assume the same horse ambulance as in the RLC Museum?

No chance of reading the road name sign at all.

It looks like one load is the fuselage and the other load the wings and I'm pretty certain it's the same vehicle in both. The script on the radiator appears, though not 100% sure, to say 'Buda', which I assume is the engine, but I've not seen that style of script for Buda anywhere else. It's chain drive and looks to have an early manually operated Hiab mounted behind the cab, which looks like it might be newer than the chassis and the registration is an early Leeds one. Anybody got any ideas as to what, where and when it might be?

I came across this website the other day. It takes a bit of working out and there appear to be many gaps but a quick search of 'warland' produced 3 results for Warland Dual Rim Company, being 1912, 1913, 1916. Open the file you want, then select 'original document' on in the box on the left. In the original document select 'download' and hey presto a PDF of the original patent arrives. The 1912 one appears to be unavailable, but the other two are. The search engine seems to be quite specific in that you need to experiment a bit on search words. e.g. searching 'scammell' produced few results whereas using 'O D North' and 'P G Hugh' in combination with 'scammell' produced better. Curiously searching Percy Hugh produced little as did Percy G Hugh, but 'Percy Garibaldi Hugh' did produce decent results. I ended up spending hours playing with different search words and combinations but did end up with some good stuff. http://worldwide.espacenet.com

Tim, Any more info on these boxes? Such as dimensions? I suspect much later than WW1, or that 'ambulance' refers to Field Ambulance, not a vehicle ambulance. The main thing about WW1 ambulances is to get out of the mindset that they were ambulances at all in the modern sense of the word. They were no more than taxis or mini-buses. Their role was purely transport and the only medical supplies they carried were when used as delivery vans to collect supplies from bases and deliver to Field Ambulances and CCSs. I've found no evidence of any supplies boxes being carried except for a small first aid kit for the driver. There simply wasn't room to carry anything. In practice, ambulance companies were not medical companies at all. They were transport companies. International convention determined that they had a Royal Army Medical Corps officer as the commanding officer, which allowed the use of the Geneva Cross and only that determined that they were regarded as medical companies. The war establishment of motor ambulances in November 1914 from the records of 323 Coy ASC (5 Motor Ambulance Convoy): Outfit of Ambulance Wagons Every ambulance carries 4 stretchers (later reduced to 3) with pillows; 8 blankets; 1 large pillow; 1 water-proof groundsheet; 1 cleaning brush or mop. In each group of 5 Ambulances, 1 ambulance which carries an orderly, RAMC contains the following equipment Water bottle for water; water bottle for medical with cup for hot soup etc; feeding cup; urinal; bed-pan with brush. 2 Ambulances in each group of five each carry an interior detachable oil lamp The Ambulance which carries the Medical Officer of each section carries a powerful hand acetylene lamp.

Certainly sounds interesting. A wander down the Western Front and that number of vehicles will look great outside the Cloth Hall in Ypres.

I agree with Doug. There appears to be some genuine history to it, so it's an interesting historical piece as it is now.

Assuming it is the one displayed in their museum it is an excellent job.

As somebody who has only previously dabbled in restoration many years ago and now has no intention of doing so ever again, I hesitate to butt in on this thread. I do agree entirely with Richard's comment about research, but that research can I believe muddy what are already muddy waters still further. Let me indulge in 2 hypothetical examples to illustrate. Let's assume I have just bought a Ford T to be restored as a WW1 ambulance. There are enough photographs of exteriors and interiors and articles to provide the restorer with enough information to produce a very passable example, so it shouldn't be a problem. However, all the information readily available relates to the vehicle when new! The problem is they only lasted a few weeks in service before the modifications started and No.1 MAC workshops effectively redesigned the cab and body and converted theirs and other MAC's Fords to that new design. Photographs don't exist, only written descriptions in 1 MAC's War Diary. Do I produce what is perceived as a Ford ambulance, or what it became in service, or something in-between as it evolved? 1 MAC workshops also acted in assessing any modifications dreamed up by other companies and approved them or not, and designed an interior heating system, so should those also be included? Unable to find a Ford, I am lucky enough to aquire a fully restored 1914 Daimler, Wolseley or similar which will provide the ideal basis for an ambulance body. I take it to a restorer and the first thing I want doing to this perfect chassis is to plate it full length down the offside and then 2 different thickness plates of different length on the nearside and I want them rivetted, not welded and am not too fussed if the cutting and fitting isn't particularly tidy, indeed better if not tidy. I can already hear the gasps of horror, but the first chassis were plated within weeks of arriving in France and there was a Routine Order requiring all ambulances to have their chassis plated whether they needed it or not, because if they didn't they soon would. The plating was done by the workshops of each company who relied on locally sourced materials, hence the different size plates etc - they could only use what they could get their hands on. Now, having persuaded the restorer that there is an authentic reason for wrecking a perfectly sound chassis, I demand that steel discs are cut and welded to the wheel rims to cover the beautifully restored wire wheel spokes. More raised eyebrows I would guess. Again, No.1 MAC workshops cut hundreds of discs for their own use and for other workshops as it became routine procedure to simply weld discs to wire wheels to strengthen them. And I want big ugly chunks of metal rivetted to the engine mounts, a few flanges stuck here and there on the axles and stub axles before you even start on the body. I end up not with a pristine circa 1914 motor car with an ambulance body but something that looks a mess. But I do have a circa 1915/16 ambulance that worked and not a pristine 1914 example that didn't work for very long. Is there any merit in reproducing a vehicle that didn't in reality survive very long? Isn't it better to produce a vehicle that shows the modifications that were required to make it work reliably? Modifying vehicles began in 1914 and continued through to 1918 and beyond. Different workshops found different solutions and the availability of raw materials often dictated the solutions were always different. Manufacturers were directed to make modifications, sometimes against their will. A Daimler representative was summoned to the Western Front to see for himself the number of Daimlers that were unfit for use as Daimler didn't believe the war office demands for spares and modifications, as were Thornycroft and Vauxhall representatives. War work proved a far harder taskmaster than civilian work, so using the manufacturer's specifications and drawings doesn't guarantee a faithful war time vehicle. So, should the restorer take their research to the levels of ASC company war records and spend hours in the hope that a modification is described in more detail than 'the rear brake linkages were modified to prevent them breaking'? I don't think so, better the restorer does what he does best, but let that be recognised as what it is and not be troubled with the detail because a war time vehicle restored as the maker intended will be very different to the same vehicle after the army have had it for a few years.

It certainly does look 'right'. But i have nothing against bright and shiny either. British vehicles were completely repainted once a year, more often if overhauled as well. That repaint involved body off, a complete rub down and 2 coats of paint followed by 2 of varnish. They were also kept as clean as possible. Not because the army loves spotless parades but because cracked chassis, front and rear axles, springs etc were a common and serious problem. By fastidiously cleaning vehicles on regular basis the cleaner/driver was forced to pay close attention and therefore spot cracks before they became breakages. Cracks were far too big a problem to be hidden by dirt.

It's a bit sketchy but the first mobile lofts were converted from GS bodied lorries and it appears that 6 buses were converted in 1916 and a further 6 in 1917. They were painted black and white instead of green so that the pigeons could identify them.

Mark, I suspect that what Napier refer to as a 2-Tonner, the WD refer to as a 30-cwt.

I've been wondering for a while now if there is any right or wrong! Everytime I think I've got a handle on it, something else crops up to alter the playing field yet again. I suspect Mark is right in that the 30-cwt had the wheels shown in his and Tim's pics and the 3-tonner had the Y-spoke wheels. 348 Coy ASC, as per Tim's pic were, it seems predominantly a Home Front company, although worked as 42 Division Ammunition Park on the Western Front. The lorry in Tim's photo is certainly a Home Front one and I'm not aware of Ammunition Parks using 30-cwts, although they may have had some a stores lorries. Napiers weren't as common as some on the Western Front and so far I have only found 1 reference to a 30-cwt Napier, and that contradicts the use of 30-cwts by Ammunition Parks, as it was supplied by 371 Coy ASC - 3 Army Troops Supply Column to 48 Division Supply Column for providing supplies to 50 Siege Brigade, though that is more likely to be general supplies, not ammunition. As for a written history, are we talking napier or WD lorries in general. If WD lorries, I doubt it is possible, at least not until a couple of more forests have grown, and I doubt there's a market for a book of several thousand pages. It will certainly have to be several books narrowed down to specific areas I think.

Looks like there's a fair bit to do so no need to rush in solving that conundrum, but I reckon you've done the right thing and you are starting with more than some folk, so good luck with the project.

Patrick Stoll is a German film maker. www.militaryfilmandmovieservice.com

Congratulations Dan and Jen. And keep up the good work, it's looking great.

I suspect it is a trial for the durability of different makes/types of tyres. Looks like it might be the Surrey area somewhere.

I've now found several references to vehicles being repainted at various periods on the Western Front and in each case the colour is described as either 'standard' or more usually 'Regulation' colour. I guess you just need to order some tins of 'Regulation'. I appreciate that won't help with desert markings but I suspect any repainted for the desert might also have been 'Regulation'. My gut feeling is that there is no actual colour. It was just paint and when it was ordered it was supplied in whatever shade happened to come out of the mix at that particular time.

I'm with Richard on this one. It seems to state on the side 'Load not to exceed 2 tons' which rules out the Napier. Belsize were generally kept for the Home Front but there were some used on the Western Front.

The Royal Logistic Corps Museum are in the very early stages of planning for 2014 . Initial ideas are to hold an event at the museum to gather together as many WW1 vehicles as possible in one place and an event to visit either France or Belgium. The more people who can offer input and/or vehicles in support of the RLC Museum's planning, the better the events will be. The RLC Museum seems to me to be the ideal focal point for any events. Please contact Andy at the RLC Museum (http://www.rlcmuseum.co.uk) with any ideas, offers of help, wads of cash etc.