steveo578

I think though I can't be sure, the StuG 3 you refer to may be privately owned either on loan or in storage after a display - the Finnish StuG 3 is part of the collection having been gifted to the museum after assistance given in refurbishing the Finnish armour collection Comet. IMO a Finnish StuG 3 is just as valid as a StuG 3 which was probably from the same source but has been re-decorated as a Wehrmacht AFV, the Finnish vehicles also served in WW2. Steve

Certainly there are photos of wood and canvass tank used on the western front esp. the small Renault FT, as it was easily moved around by horse power. I'll see if I can trawl up a photo when I have more time. To give an idea of how crucial aerial observation was in WW1 on 15th September 1916 German air baloon observers noticed activity behind the lines and requested an aircraft to carry out further observation, it reported a number of large armoured cars in the sector. The report was noted but it was decided that by the nature of armoured cars being incapable of offensive action no further action was warrented- because tanks were an unknown quantity the magnitute of the discovery was not appreciated. A German dummy tank probably meant to resemble a Whippet (note the "step" so not a training tank in expectation of a LK2), it was abandooned in Lille in 1918 -therefore not a War Bonds prop, although could be for training Anti-Tank sections it is rather sophisticated.

Not in the reserve -dump compound a Covenantor or early Crusader turret and a section of tortoise track -in the 1960s when I first got to bovington they had a nice instructive out door display of basic British tank turrets although this Crusader wasn't one, several Churchill turrets and the Crusader 3 in the reserve compound were part of the display. also nearbye was the Matilda A11 planter -don't know if that's still around these days.

2pdr A/T gun slide recovered from SPTA Rhino Churchill Mk7 AVRE Churchill Mk7 AVRE Modified Pershing gun mantlet

ATR2, with FCT turret ATR2, with FCT turret ATR 2 turret on trailer ATR 2 turret on trailer Khaled prototype

The SPTA A27L Centaur Yellow Mike and the A24 off SPTA [ATTACH=CONFIG]33640[/ATTACH] [ATTACH=CONFIG]33641[/ATTACH]

Some photos of a SAV 43 which was parked up in the storage area long years ago, it was not part of the Museums holdings but was lodged there for sometime- I think it got butchered into a Marder look a like for a Film -possibly even Saving Private Ryan but I'm not 100% sure if it was that one or another.

So the list published earlier is even more fictitious? Yes I remember that well:( if i remember correctly a fair bit of work was done on the FV401 and Oxford. The last I recall was the U/E was on display next to the Char B1bis (which is currently elsewhere) and Universal was in the British section with a Cromwell -but its been a long long time since I've been to the museum. Steve

So how many charity specific donation accounts does the Tank Museum have? apart from the Tiger appeal? I would be surprised to hear that although the museum is or was primarily a repository of British Tanks that there is a specific account for the upkeep of distressed british tanks. I can understand the museum accepting charity specific restrictions with regard to large donations such as the generous donation from the People of Kuwait but I would imagine that small donations with restrictions unless readily compatable with existing accounts would be gracefully decined, to do otherwise would become an administrative nightmare- to be tangental I doubt the Museum would accept a small donation specifically to fix the idiotic gun mount on the Churchill Mk2 gateguard. Good I feel sure that we're both now on the same page. regards Steve

At least it doesn't have the "ripple" effect seen on some British BP armour- but really there isn't an alternative, although a lot of the "grain" would be lost in sand blasting.

Yes it would seem most of the carrier collection is in mothballs - possibly the only ones that seem to be on display are the U/C and the U/E (french) carrier. Wasn't ever aware they had a loyd, wonder if Alastair knows they have one? Steve

With respect John you are making a pretty good fist of being an apologist for Bovy and I am offended that you consider justifable criticism unacceptable. I've been through the entire thread this morning and no-one has suggested otherwise that Bovy has to generate its own income (Neil made an ambiguous point about public funds- and I corrected this to avoid anyone less informed thinking that Bovy is supported in any way out out of the MOD budget or general taxation unlike some National museums) The point of the thread as posted by Happydayz123 was and has developed into the wider point that the reserve is neither displayed or adequately accessable, it has bugger all to do with Kraut tanks- that's another arguement on another thread [Tiger 131 etc] and should anyone want to argue that point again it should really be on that thread if only to avoid duplicating arguements. IMO the reserve collect condition and accessablity has little to do with the hoy-pol-oi of visiting holiday makers it is more to do with serious study of AFVs just as access to numerous fossils at the National History Museum is restricted (but not left out in the car park) and I have to make the point again Bovington receives funding for educational purposes. Obviously staffing has an effect it is probably impossible to "police" the hangers that make up the reserve collection with the current staffing level and the same applies to the wired compound. Given that something needs to be done to make it accessable -before some misguided anti-militarist in Dorest council, in lottery funding or even in the Charity Commisioners decides that "their" valuable assets are being mis-spent or mis appropriated. John why mention "dozens" it doesn't add to the arguement. John setting aside the recruiting drive - I'm alrerady a member, 0641 if you need to know, there is a big difference between Wolverhampton and other places in the UK not to mention abroad. When I was in Surrey it was feasable to journey to Bovy, today a working weekend in Dorset for me would be a 800mile round trip added to admin. costs etc, etc starting and ending with a conservative 6 hour journey and worse for people who live further afield. IMO it would be as feasable make a contribution to Bovy funds with provisos as it would be for a Quaker to pay taxes with the codicil that the were not to be used for military purposes. At the moment any such monies would probably go straight into the Tiger restoration fund. Nor are you in a position to know the financial or personal circumstances of anyone on this site and berate them for lack of contribution or effort. Further is it really acceptable to be "rattling the collection tin" in these circumstances? or any number of contributors to the site could be making financial pitches for their favourite charities be it the Haig fund, Meir Panim or even the Red Cresent. That is extremely disingenuous we still live in a democracy although we are all guests in Jacks tent where allowing for good manners ones right to an opinion is not based on the size of ones wallet. regards Steve

The problem is you need a suitably qualified person to access the big money programmes- as my late father used to put it;- "ensuring employment for the otherwise unemployable sons and daughters of the great and the good" My highest attainment is only a HND level so don't worry about it and I know two D. Phils who can't change a lamp.:cool2: Steve

I don't know I might be behind the times too, perhaps it's just stuck at Bovington for lack of transport, although I would have thought it could be made road worthy and driven there- to give the public an idea of the use of an M2 you would certainly need at least two- for whatever configuration be it pontoon or bridge structure.

David Fletcher official title is museum historian -he used to be Librarian but because of funding requirements to obtain educational funds and status the librarian has to have a accedemic qualification -unfortunately as there isn't a u/g degree in Tankology a degree in another historical or curatorial discipiline is necessary -if I remember correctly the librarian or assistant. librarian is ex. Wordsworth museum:-| Steve

While the pressed steel cab might be a difficult find (although it may have alot of similarities with Steyr trucks) there was a fairly common einheits cab of wood and cardboard and of course a simple flat plate armoured version used as a weapons carrier, both would not be beyond fabrication without heavy machinery.

Neil Just thought I better clarify before you're bounced by a Bovy appologist:D I absolutely agree that your idea has alot of merit- and it's certainly that I wouldn't benefit from it as I have neither cash,skill or space to foster an AFV, but I can certainly see the merit in allowing some-one like yourself to do so. However I remember the Bovington transcription thing the "powers that be" were less than impressed with that idea (which I think was David Fletchers brain child) as they thought valuable information would get into the public domain without the necessary payments -result relatively stalled programme and still huge amounts of un-accessable information- try to get a simple T number to ZR for example. Steve

Adrian Barrell So do they have both OTA Cavaliers Blue and Red (pink)? I was fairly sure A30 hadn't returned- there also didn't seem to be any Comets in the reserve list- I assume the mobile 21ZR** is still at Bovington and the statics example -but no reserves. Loosing the Cavalier turret to IWM is a bit remiss as Red turret was well "sh**ged" Yes I was in the "no-names no pack drill" mode For a moment I had the impression of a tortoise in a tin box:rofl: Steve

Hi Neil That would be nice idea but probably a legal minefield and bovington doesn't get money from the "public purse" -ie taxation apart from the usual lottery education grants etc. Looking at the T72 shown in the photos I certainly take your point though. Steve

Yes very interesting- however there are some points of query- There should be 2 A24 Cavaliers in the collection the SPTA Cavalier recovered in 1985 and another recovered in 1992-5 from OTA. Mention is made of a A30 Challenger- so has it been returned from I of W where it has been since about 1999. There are 2 Churchills these should be T251949 and T251952 (fictious number) however certainly T251952 has resided in I of W for sometime now. The M7B1 should possibly be a ex Bundeswehr M7B2 and I'm fairly certain it went to the U.S. many years ago. I'm so glad you think that statement is wrong -I don't think I'll air my views of the cabbage obsessed public:banghead::argh: Steve

Fair point -the museum workshops were never expected to do large scale refurbishments, but that's not the point of this thread- it's what is in the reserve collection and by inference why the public doesn't get to view it, like your WW2 tank helmets -which could be on one of the manequins in the main collection- perhaps. I mentioned it before, but as an example the Kent Churchill 3inch gun carrier as shown in the photos cannot be beaten for lack of care and interest. OK it was recovered in a bad way -possibly used as a target for Wallbuster or early HESH weapons large areas were flame cut before burial but that is no excuse to use it as a skip for spare track -if the museum wants a skip I'm sure there are some knocking around- demand has been reduced during the economic downturn, but chucking track into a skip isn't a good idea either -they won't know what they have got, the stuff at the bottom will never been seen again.:nut: A further point is that without access to the reserve collection the exhibits are effectively not under any public scruitiny -stuff disappears -even stuff that is not in the reserve collection ends up elsewhere without the opportunity for the public to scrutinise policy. The forum did what should be runners in the Tiger 131 thread sometime ago, but donated runners should never left to rot -even the comparatively mild Dorset climate. Steve

At least some-one else is of similar mind:angry I see the Churchill Mk2 (ex Beverley) still has the inappropriate piece of pipe stuck in the hull besa mount as a gateguard for the museum accuracy is paramount and I'm sure even at this late date a No 19 Besa mount could be scrounged from some old wreck. When it comes down to it Bovington is still one of the greatest museums but it really needs to get back to the time when it was more enthusiast- not administrator led. Steve

In the past alot of RE exhibits were stored there assuming the RE museum will ever get itself on a proper basis.

Hi Eric Have you considered starting a thread on the restoration sub forum- currently we've already got a Universal and a Loyd carrier- perhaps some-one might find a Windsor and give us a full set:D -an Oxford would be going too far:nut: Steve

certainly look like Mk4s (although it could be just the muzzle cover). I bet the striped barrels did nothing to hide a Bofors- nice pic.