Cheshire Steve

Looks like the photo was a red herring as I don't think Middle Wallop was ever MoS so I don't suppose they ever had civilian registered emergency vehicles ... I can see this is the place to come if you have an unidentified photo.

Thanks guys - that all seems to make sense, seems I came to the right place. Regarding the DM reg at Boscombe in 1971 it is 40DM22 I spotted here (not my photo) :

Boscombe Down, Farnborough and a host of other research sites like FVRDE were MoS sites until 1959 when the MoS was wound up. These sites used civilian registrations for their own vehicles. After the MoS was wound up, as far as I can tell, new vehicles on those sites got military registrations - certainly I have seen a 1971 photo of fire tenders at Boscombe and they were all military plated (AA, AF and DM plates). I wonder if those with civilian registrations were either disposed of (seems unlikely for special vehicles like airfield fire tenders), or continued with civilian plates, or went back onto military plates. Presumably photos taken in the 60s could answer this - if any exist - maybe of fire tenders as they get photographed a lot on open days. My suspicion is that they continued on civvy plates, as there is a surviving Land Rover delivered new to Boscombe Down in 1958, which appears to have carried the same UXMnn civilian registration from new right up 1984 when in civilian hands. But that could have been disposed of in 1959, so pretty inconclusive.

I sent an e-mail to Peter Stubbs in February using the e-mail on the Beverley Association web page and it came back e-mail address does not exist. I wondered if maybe the Beverley Association had been wound up. I see there is a surface mail address on one of the pages for Brian Holt, maybe I should write him a letter. Steve

I have a lead on the location of the archives from the Museum of Army Transport. According to Derek Armitage, vice-president of the Air Despatch Association, he was involved with the move of material from Beverley, and many of the documents went to the Museum at Deepcut. I will follow up with him for a bit more detail. Excavations this week in the archives of the Airborne Assault people at Duxford revealed a lot of photos of air drop of all manner of things from 1940s to 1980s. I think they were the lay ups of the photographic plates used in report production, but without any narrative, and precious few dates, it is hard to get any context. Disappointing from my perspective as no Beverley air drop info, no Rover Mk5s either. However I did jot down a few reg marks of vehicles involved in air drops. Champ 92BE17 was involved in rigging trials at Aldershot in 1958 to see how long it takes to load the MSP. Stressed platform loaded with Jeep 32YF75 appears as does Rover Mk 3 02BH88 loaded with howitzer. There is a picture of C-119 DT-CAK apparently used in drop trials Rover Mk 3 71?BD48 is shown loaded on a non-MSP pallet, and another non-MSP with a pair of motorcycles, 38YA21 and 34YA71. Probably related to the C-119 drops. Other Champs appearing in air drop context are 16BE40 and 29BE91, and Jeep 85YK14. Its the Beverley drop trials at Boscombe 1956-1958 that are my main interest - still working on tracking that info down. Steve

Who said Land Rovers don't have crumple zones ! There were one or two of these incidents in the drops at Watchfield too, but I guess the loss rate was acceptably low. Now if you had an equivalent 1950s picture, that would be very interesting. I should think there were a few hard landings while they sorted out the system, possibly using Larkhill DZ from Boscombe.

Aeronut - you attached page 2, have you got the plates they refer to? Steve

Bingo ! Well done Aeronut. I have no doubt you are right, the Paratechnicon .. a good name to search for, and the GAL freighter that paperwork refers to is what became the Beverley. So it look like an AATDC invention c1950, that all fits. I have also had some good new from the Assistant Curator at the Airborne Assault Museum, who has had someone digging through previously uncatalogued material and has turned up a lot of AATDC information "which has numerous references to trials of various drops equipment. There are 6 pages, listing nearly 60 files, some are only a few pages, others are anything from 20 to over 100 pages long. There are also some photo's." I asked if this material might have come from The Army Transport Museum, and the response was "The majority of what we hold appears to have been in the collection for some time and actually dates from the trials and is predominantly imagery rather than documentation. The majority of this sort of material appears to have to come to the old archives in Aldershot as the various trails units were wound down." So I am now rather looking forward to visiting and viewing what they have got, but it sounds like a lot of material to look through including photos - I really couldn't have asked for more. Steve

You can see lots of pictures of MSPs in this thread on the 1959 AATDC trials. That includes dropping artillery (17 pounders, howitzers), Ferret scout cars, Champs, etc. I should think the Rover Mk3/5 air drop was routine by then and they were busy finding what else they could drop. I can't figure out the relative roles of Old Sarum v Boscombe Down in all this. Steve http://www.pprune.org/military-aviation/500547-beverley-c1-xh122-30-sqn-1959-a.html

Thanks Wally, I will post on here if I find where the info went. Steve

Wally, this is very interesting. 47 Coy was the air despatch people at Watchfield right in the period when all this development was going on. Their records should answer the question as to whether they were actually involved in trials at Watchfield, or whether they were just training people for using the platform, as well as many other questions. Of course they may have been involved at Boscombe. I will approach the RLC museum and ask if they are aware of receiving this info. Did you have a catalogue/index of the paperwork side? Just to know what documents existed at your museum will improve the chance of tracking them down. I do hope they are just heaped up somewhere in storage and not disposed off. Steve

Thanks for the extra info, Blackpowder : Interesting though those are, I don't think those are the 16 foot long MSP but rather the earlier 'crash pan' type that they used at El Gamil from the Halifax because the MSPs weren't certified for the Beverley. If the MSP evolved from them then we need to find the missing link. To me the MSP looks like a separate development. Ruxy : As regards helicopter transport replacing air drop, I have spoken to someone involved in this and he says that a Wessex could just handle a competely stripped airportable (no doors, not even a windscreen), and that really it all became more practicable when the Chinooks came along way later. Certainly the range was rather limited with that sort of suspended load. There wasn't much of that nature going on in the 1950s. Wally : Interested that you had an MSP then, did you have any supporting paperwork about the MSP history? Lets restrict this back to the origins of the MSP in the c1950s, with a touch of the early 1960s, and not drift into the 1970s or 1980s. What I am concerned about are its origins and the development, testing, and certification carried out in the 1950s. So that is before the Argosy and the C130 Hercules came along. Although the whole story is an interesting one, and I am surprised there isn't a book or two on the topic. Steve

No, have to admit I haven't read the lightweight book, but thanks for the recommendation. The lightweight didn't arrive until about 1968/69 IIRC which is about 10 years after the era I am interested in. I might put the book on my Xmas list. I take the point though that maybe the MSP type air-drop was largely replaced by landing them from helicopters, and that air-drop went out of use, but don't know when that was. Presumably they used the Bristol Belvedere or the Wessex, as the Chinook didn't arrive until much later. However, I would have thought a Hercules would have a lot more range than a helicopter when carrying a vehicle. So for some operations the aircraft drop might still be required. From what I read the MSP had to be replaced when the Dash4a system came with the Hercules C130J which came in service in something like 1996, but how often it had been used over the last 40 years is something of which I have no idea. Maybe we just didn't have the sort of operations that required it. Steve

Thanks for the additional Info Clive. I append below the EMER Clive found previously on the internal lashing eyes fitted to Rover Mark 3 and Mark 5 for air transportation. I had associated this with air drop, but looking afresh I see it is for all air shipment. Locally fabricated, each from 3/16" by 6" mild steel, and secured by 2BA screws. It is dated Jan 57, I think I previously stated Feb 57 - flakey memory ! Estimated 3 hours to make and fit. The amendment to only modify Rover Mk 3 and Rover Mk 5 was issued on 17 Oct 1966 (info on that from John Mastrangelo). For those interested in the MSP, some of its details are revealed in a patent application by Blackburn (UK 820968 Dec 1956) who designed a competitor drop platform, and referred back to the current drop platforms for comparison purposes. MSP width 84 inch, length 192 inch (16ft), maximum loaded weight 18,000lb, platform weight 1400lb including the lashings and the inflatable bags used underneath the platform to absorb the landing shock. A typical load was a Land Rover and trailer. The heavy stressed platform at that time was 24ft long and 3570lb, but as far as I can tell that was still undergoing experimentation and trials as late as 1961. Steve

Pretty sure JADTEU evolved from JATE, and JATE and its predecessor information is held by the Paradata people who I am already in touch with. http://www.paradata.org.uk/units/joint-air-transport-establishment They initially reported they couldn't find anything on MSP development - which was quite a surprise ! When I was able to provide them with some more detailed info and the fact the AATDC was involved, they said they held the old AATDC records and would have another look as they have some uncatalogued material. I am hoping their second attempt will reveal something. I have also looked on the National Archives on-line. I am not sure if their index simply reflects the info that the Paradata people hold. That appears to show a 3 year gap in AATDC records/reports (1956-1958), similar gap for A&AEE Boscombe Down. Might be able to piece together info on the gap by looking at 1959 info, which might always give clues about earlier work. Best info I spotted in the National Archive was AIR 66/123 from 1952 "Platform dropping: parachute extraction, tie-down release and air bag deceleration" which could well give the origins of the MSP. Steve

The Medium Stressed Platform was the backbone of vehicular air drop for something like 40 years, yet when I started researching its development history it has been surprisingly difficult to find information. Even the Paradata museum have yet to turn anything up, and I have aired the topic on Land Rover Series 1 and 2 boards, so I thought to ask here. Maybe someone on this forum was involved. I think the MSP goes back to c1952 and was experimented with using leased USAF Fairchild Boxcars (C-119s), but I don't know if it was ever rolled out. The MSP seems different from the USAF drop platforms, so no idea who thought it up. Any info welcome. When the Beverley aircraft production started in 1955, the 3rd and 4th made (XB261 and XB262) were allocated to A&AEE Boscombe Down (July 1955), and it seems XB261 was used for air drop development, whereas XB262 more on flight characteristsics. XB261 was to stay at Boscombe until 1971, XB262 went for hot and cold trials, though was back at Boscombe in the late 50s before moving to an operational role in 1959. XB259 was also at Boscombe in Feb 1956. An article in Flight magazine in 1961 on the Blackburn Delivery System (used to extract the MSP) stated that the experimentation on the heavy drop was carried out by AATDC/A&AEE in conjunction with Blackburn and GQ Parachutes (who I think were the makers of the impact absorbing air bags under the MSP as well as the main parachutes). The Paradata Museum hold the AATDC records but it seems there is a gap in the 1956-1958 period, the curator there told me "if the trials were during a politically sensitive era then they may not have kept any at all". Arnhem Camp, Watchfield was also involved in heavy drop in the 1950s, with RASC rigging MSPs there with Rover Mk 3 and Rover Mk 5 and trailer, trucking them to RAF Abingdon and then Beverleys flying them back to the the Watchfield DZ. Was this part of the experimental program, or was it operational roll-out and para/pilot training? 16 Para Heavy Drop Coy was formed at Watchfield in 1961. Rigging diagrams must have existed for vehicles on the MSP but none have turned up. Clive Elliott has found a Feb 1957 EMER specific to the Rover Mk3/5 air drop (internal lashing points). Picture below thought to be taken at Watchfield at same time an RASC promotional film was being made. Given extraction of a heavy platform is exciting from the pilot's perspective, I assume all aspects must be well tested and certified. However I have no idea where to find info on certification. I do know that the Beverley wasn't certified for dropping the MSP at the time of the El Gamil raid during the Suez crisis (Nov 1956), and they had to rely on 7 Hastings aircraft dropping Jeeps using platforms reputed to have been dug out of a museum. So when was it certified, and were there separate certifications for different vehicles? Very grateful for anyone who can fill in the gaps, or point me to the right information sources, and happy to share what I have found so far with anyone interested. Also very interested to speak to anyone with a Rover Mk 3 or 5 thought to have been air-dropped. Steve

No diaphragms in SU carbs, you are thinking of Strombergs or maybe fuel pumps.

Thanks Ted, Great to hear from the owner of the database. I found it very interesting, not least because I have a 1956 Land Rover that first went into the army for 2 years then was struck off to the Ministry of Supply - so I was scratching my head wondering how and why such a thing could happen and what the MoS might want with it. I first found John Thompson, and bought his Green Goddess CD, then discovered the FBS had the Duty Done CD. It really opened my eyes to the number of vehicles involved in the civil defence roles in the cold war era. I had only just entered the world then. I have been able to add some Land Rover updates from the series 1 era, and some other numbers used by the military research establishments and home office, such as some RGX and more UXM. But I suppose the list is endless if all government vehicles are included. As regards my Landy, I think it was bent in an experiment at Boscombe (which was MoS), so the army made them pay for it. Internal lashing points suggest it was part of the air drop trials, probably sold out damaged via Ruddington 1958/1959. So finding those records is my next step. Steve

Thanks to Clive too - I will update my copy of the Duty Done database. I am not sure if there is a master copy currently being maintained and updated, it came with a cover slip indicating it was, by E.B. Angus, but when I tried the provided freeserve e-mail address it didn't work. Edit : 463 BGJ has location information given as "Bucks/21 (Slough)" Steve

Sudden misbehaviour does sound more electrical to me. As you have been very thorough, just wondering about more obscure options : Is the engine earth strap secure. Possibly try a different HT coil too. I have heard of a partially blocked fuel line causing starvation, but if it flows OK into a jar then that will be plenty. It isn't new enough for cats is it? I have heard of cats collapsing and blocking an exhaust (not on a landy). I have had Rover V8s for 30 years, and sudden misbehaviour after a run is rare. When I have had it, then more than once it was condensation inside the distributor cap due to water condensation inside the engine due to standing, once it was a bad connection in the lead to the coil (that was really embarassing as it broke down at the local tip and the vultures were circling), once it was me putting the HT leads on the wrong way round ! They are usually pretty tolerant. I used to have one that when parked on my drive engine upwards had trouble priming the carbs with the mechanical pump (real old ones had timing case mechnical fuel pumps), so I used to pour petrol down the inlet and it would fire up. Failing that the car is rubbish, sell it me for next to nothing Steve

I can confirm that sales at Hereford 14, Colchester 46, Winchester 16, Carlisle 62, and Stirling 2/72 feature on the CD with Matchless motorcycles - over 20 for the the last one. Drop me a PM if you can't get the CD and I will help. Steve

I got my copy from the Fire Brigade Society in August, try them - fbssalesunit@gmail.com There are no lot numbers, but I am sure you will find the info useful, and its not much to donate to such a worthy cause. However there are gaps, they must have had access to a great deal of disposal records, but not all of them. Yes, it does list 436 BGJ all on its own with no further details, but the note immediately after it says 450 BGJ to 493 BGJ were all Matchless G3 350cc machines, however they all seems to have been disposed of earlier (RD97 to RD107). I have got myself more organised now! So here's a new list for Motorcycles at RD112 405ALD Matchless G3 Home Office - Oxford Frame A72230 406ALD Matchless G3 Home Office - Bucks/High Wycombe Frame A72234 436BGJ Matchless no details NYV311 Matchless G3 Home Office - Bucks/10 (Wolverton) WXR563 Matchless Home Office - Kent/Canterbury XYM552 Matchless Home Office - Oxfordshire XYM636 Matchless Home Office XYM637 Matchless Bedfordshire/Dunstable XYM640 Matchless Home Office Chassis A74256 XYM641 Matchless Home Office Chassis A74261 If you can get the CD then it will save me repeating the exercise for the other auctions you list, as it takes time to wade through and I have to run it on a different PC as the spreadsheet crashes my copy of Open Office (though its OK on Excel). Steve

I don't have Ruddington catalogues (but would dearly like to look up 1958-1959 to see if my ex-military Landy is mentioned). But Duty-Done CD I have bought, and it shows several Matchless machines disposed of at RD112 : WXR563, XYM552, XYM636, XYM637, XYM640, XYM641, 436BGJ. Maybe there is some info from the other auctions you list, but have to pop out now, can look later if it is useful. Steve

I have a V8 110. I get an occasional problem with it condensing moisture inside the distributor cap. Usually this occurs after it has been standing for a long while and then I take it for a short run in cold conditions - next time I go to start it, it misbehaves. You say you changed the distributor, but was thinking you might have kept the same cap and swapped it across - it only takes a small amount of moisture. Looks like you have eliminated water in the carbs, as you checked the float levels. Only other thought at the mo' is maybe someone swapped a couple of plug leads to play a trick on you. Steve

Thanks, Ivor, for the advice on freeing-off the tap - and the potential problems. Steve