Cheshire Steve

My father was there too, with 213 MU, June to Aug 1946. Decommissioning the air sea rescue boats, I couldn't make out the entry in his diary, looks like Gainock. He is in care now with advanced dementia, I am having to dispose of his stuff. He made a cracking model of the Air Sea Rescue boat he was on at Haifa. Museum quality in my opinion, but I think the Air Sea Rescue museum already has one. It was used as high speed transport to get various people from A to B under "stop for nothing" orders. It was fitted with Oerlikons. The only thing he wanted to finish it off were the scramble nets, and he just couldn't find any square netting correct to scale.

My father also had a spell on the Air Sea Rescue boats - he was in a transit camp in Haifa and they needed an engineer in HSL2699 so he spent 2 or 3 months on that, when he finally got back to England in 1946 he was on them again at Felixstowe, often out on patrol for mines that had broken away and were floating around the North Sea. Steve

My father was with 58 RSU in Quassasin from July 42 to Nov 42, then Mersa Matruh through to June 43. I think most of the pics are from this period, and it was in 1942 that I think the need for salvaging parts was greatest. He didn't get out of the Middle East until 1946, so I have some pics that probably date from that later period. Do you have any details of your father's involvement? Steve

My father was in 58RSU and I know they came across some German Planes out in the Western Desert. He told me they spent ages looking for the expected booby traps and on one of them they had got as far as running up the engine when they discovered it had a booby trap in the tail which blew it nearly in half, but he said something about the 109 they recovered intact being an interesting desert model and was shipped all the way back via Alexandria to Farnborough. I have a couple of full pictures of it on the trailer and a picture of the booby trapped one in the desert (after it had gone off) with its back broken. I have quite a few plane shots, including a Hawker Hart? that one of the big wigs used to use on weekend jaunts to strafe the Germans - he took a bullet in the radiator so popped it down somewhere safe for the RSU to bring back. There is a Dakota they brought back and rebuilt, which the USAF had already written off, so it became RAF private transport for one of the big wigs - nice shots of that all polished. Lots of pics of crashed planes being recovered. However I am sure there is a lot of info on the planes in the Desert Air Force - I haven't seen much on the RSUs so I am trying to find out more about how they were equipped, and how they managed to cross the supposedly impassable Qattara Depression with what I now know to be Bedford OXCs with fully laden Queen Mary trailers. I understand that spare parts were in short supply, so recovering planes, engines, etc was essential to keep the war effort going. If that aspect of the desert war has been written about I would be interested to know more. Steve

Thanks for that - many vehicles I have never heard of (and neither has Wikipedia), but now I have some names I can find threads on HMVF, and maybe track down some restored units for a closer look. The Leyland Retriever has a very old fashioned look about it. Is the Commer tractor unit a Q2? I can find no information on the Commer military tractor units, just a photo of what claims to be a Q2 that look similar. Steve

Flushed with success after my question about CMPs, I wonder if I can ask for IDs on some more trucks that feature in my father's phutos from the war in the desert between 1942 to 1944 (assuming I manage to attach them correctly...they started as thumbnails and have expanded in the preview and I don't seem to be able to resize them, and in my Firefox browser it has become quite a mess - apols if it is hard to read) I remember my father said they had a Cole's Crane - is it on a Scammell? The trailer is a Queen Mary but I don't know about the tractor Similar tractor units - Bedfords? No idea about the 2 below I assume they were all painted desert sand. I have nearly finished making a CMP model for my father, and need to know what colour to paint it. I am slightly curious about the headlights, they seem to only have one convoy light, and the other blacked out. Thanks, Steve

Excellent pics, thanks. With the fantastic help here from everyone I feel fairly sure that the last pic is the C15A, with type 13 cab (with headlights inset), and 2C1 all steel body. I have found a kit for exactly that, so will make one for my father and see what he says (didn't find a C15 equivalent kit). I now know they had CMP trucks in the RSU, but the wireless truck may have been something else, so hopefully I can get dad to tell me about it (though due to his dementia he now thinks its 1950 and so is rather cagey about revealing anything 'secret'). Steve

Not sure of the cab types you refer to - is this the sort of thing ? It looks very similar at the back, though the vehicle number isn't in the same place. I suppose for use in the Western Desert they would be sand coloured. https://www.the-blueprints.com/blueprints/trucks/chevrolet/53640/view/chevrolet_cmp_15cwt_4x4/

Thanks guys, I only discovered what a CMP truck was yesterday, and to ID both in that photo as CMPs helps. I assumed they would go for 4WD types as they were operating 'off the map', but seeing as they managed to get queen mary trailers through then maybe 2WD was enough. Does it seem reasonable that they would use a canvas top for the radio truck, or do you think they would have a special radio truck bodywork? I was thinking that a tin top would be like an oven in the desert, and also present more of an interesting target if the convoy was attacked. I think I'll get hold of a model of one of the 15cwt CMPs and see if it jogs my father's memories. Steve

My father (now 94) mentioned the other day that in 58RSU in North Africa the radio truck was a 15cwt, and they had a couple of machine guns in the back allowing them to fight back if strafed on the desert road. I have been looking through his WW2 photos from when he was doing RSU recovery in the Western Desert (mid-1942 to mid-1943), but only one of his photos show what could be a 15cwt truck, and that from the rear. I assume the 15cwt trucks would be 4x4, and it seems the Ford and Chevy CMP trucks (C15A, F15A) were available. I don't know if there is enough in this shot of RAF 95506 to identify the truck type, but it looks CMP-like to me but maybe heavier than 15cwt, e.g. 30cwt. My father would have been radio operator but I am not sure the radio truck would have looked much different from the others in the convoy. Any other info on the make-up of the RAF RSU convoys appreciated - sadly my father has advanced dementia and I only get snippets of memory as they surface, but the war is about all he can remember so some of them are interesting so I am trying to piece together the fragments. (Hope this picture is attached OK - it doesn't seem to have worked well with my browser).

18 days and no response to my e-mail enquiry at RAF Museum, Hendon - very disappointing. So I'll try Bletchley and see what they say. I did find a little bit more about the RSU radio truck. Although my father can't remember anything post 1950s due to his dementia, he did volunteer some information when I was chatting to him the other day. He was telling me about lone German fighters attacking just about anything on the desert road back during the war in North Africa c1942, and that standing orders was to get behind a sand dune - which he says was pretty stupid as the plane would turn for another run and you would be the wrong side of the dune. But he did say the radio truck in the RSU convoy was a 15cwt, and they had mounted two machine guns in the back. I tried to press him on using code on the radio but he clammed up - he doesn't realise 70 years have passed. Steve

Good idea. I had thought about contacting Bletchley, but not considered the RAF museum. Haven't visited either as a bit of a long hike from the North West (though have been to Cosford), but Bletchley is on my to-do list sometime this year since discovering my mother worked at the Harrogate listening post. The Bletchley website made me wonder if they have curators or whether all you have is a glorified ticket office, but Hendon has a list of different contacts including curatorial. I will try them first. Steve

Hi Iain, Google had already turned that up, and it says "Unfortunately it is difficult to find detailed information on these systems and how they were used during the war." which is why I asked here. I can't even find rough information, let alone detailed, of who they were issued to, what they were used for, etc. For example did all aircraft have them ? Would an RSU have several or just one nominated operator ? It seems there is less info on these than on the German's Enigma. Steve

Clearing out my father's home, I came across a canvas bag marked SYKO CIPHER DEVICE, unfortunately no device inside. He was an LAC in the RAF so this was quite a surprise, and I have found very little about who would have been issued with these. Only part of his service I think could relate to this is he was in 58 RSU recovering crashed aircraft in the Western Desert (that was mid 42 to mid 43), though does this mean my father was also the 'radio operator' in the RSU column ? Unfortunately he has serious dementia so I can't ask him, and seaching the web has revealed very little about how many were issued and to whom, and I haven't found any pictures of a canvas bag like this, though I read that Bletchley has a device and its leather case/box.

Definitely talking to myself here - but in case anyone searches and finds this I found a drawing of a Rover Mk7 in the Army User Handbook for Mk 6 to Mk 9, and that shows the older style hitch. The manual does refer to both types of hitch, so its my guess the rotating NATO type came in with the Rover 8 c1961, or at earliest during production of the Mk 6/7 (1958 to 1961). I now have the correct early type of hitch for my 1956 Rover Mk5 -so don't intend to pursue it further.

Aha - found this Rover Mk 5 piccie with earlier hitch type in a military manual. Rover Mk 5 was mid 1956 to early 1957 for 4x4 version.

I had no idea I had asked such a difficult question, as I assumed there were lots of 1955-1960 vehicles restored, and I know people are keen to get the right period parts. What I have found is someone with a fabulously original 1955 FFR S1 (desert spec Rover Mk 3), and that has the hitch type from before the common NATO swivel type (there is an FV number there but its hard to make out). So looks like this not only pushes the date for complete adoption of the NATO type further forward, but clearly this one wasn't upgraded to the later type during its service life. The Rover Mk 3 and Mk 5 were delivered in the same batch of vehicles, so seems increasingly likely this wouild be the correct hitch for my 1956 Mk 5 too.

Lots of searching and still can't find when the Landy tow hitch changed over from the early type, which I think looks pretty much like the attached picture, to the chunky later one that we all know and love! I have been told the large recovery vehicles had the rotating later NATO style hitch as early as 1954, but military Landy photos appear to show this earlier sort into the late 50s. So I am interested to know when they changed over, and if vehicles in service would have had their hitches replaced. Am I right in thinking the early one is known as the rhino hitch (or maybe Parrots Beak hitch) and the later one as the Dixon-Bate, or are they both Dixon-Bate designs? And was there a non-rotating version of the later hitch fitted or did they go straight to the rotating version? Note that I do not use the 1956 Landy for towing so I am not concerned with the design flaws of the earlier hitch, just thought I would replace the current ball hitch with military pattern as one of many small steps back towards how it would have been back in its military days. I have a rotating NATO hitch to go on if its correct. One thing I do know is the June 1957 military parts list says the hitch is 246109, and the adaptor plate is 245599, but no image or maker. I have seen an undated picture of a Rover Mk5 at FVRDE which appears to have the later NATO hitch, so maybe they did get changed over in service (were the trailer eyes the same size for both types?).

I did look for rivet holes when cleaning and repainting - didn't spot any, think I would have spotted them even though I didn't know exactly where to look. It was a very coherent black paint over the Sky Blue, the block must have been thoroughly cleaned and spray painted. Thanks for all the info guys. Have been educated today.

Thanks for explaining the S in S236. I didn't fit the engine, and don't know if it came out of a crate or out of a lightweight, but it is +30, though no military recon plate on it, and the original Sky Blue on the block had a black paint coat over the top - which I assumed meant it had been rebored in civilian life. The other parts all had original scruffy sky blue. Its got a twin pulley on the crank, but civvy alternator and four blade fan, probably the fan being the original from the S1. Having rebuilt it I still have an annoying rattle mostly when it is half warm, and having replaced so many things, what I have left is a very strong suspicion that one of the tappet guides loosens off and moves when the block warms up. I replaced the tappets and rollers and checked the play of the tappets in the guides wasn't excessive, but never thought to test the guides for tightness in the block. At least I can do that without getting the engine back out, so its back on the job list. Steve

Thanks for the extra info. The 7-bolt pump on my early lightweight engine bears the number 538693, thankfully it seems OK as they are not cheap. The engine has a S23600 prefix, and the timing cover has the machined face and filler tube. Must try and get hold of some more manuals, though my main interest is military S1, and have the manuals for that, its just that this one has the lightweight engine in it, and its needed some work lately. Those old S2 2.25 petrol engines must be one of the rarest engines around - though I suppose the chances of any of the 2 litre diesels surviving without being scrapped and replaced are pretty small, but I have seen the occasional S1 diesel advertised with original engine so a few survive. Steve

Thanks for the informative response, had thought that maybe all the lightweight engines had the 7 bolt pump, same as mine. Did the lwt with 9 bolt use the civvy timing cover, or was there yet another timing cover with the filler/breather bolted on the top like the 7-bolt pump ones? Turns out the S2 2.25 petrol was based closely on the 2 litre diesel, front cover pump etc have same part nos. They revised the diesel by removing the wet liners for the S2A, but they also enlarged the fan and had to move the pump spindle, so the whole front end changed, and the petrol followed. So those S2 2.25 engines are rare and unusual, and a lot of standard 2.25 parts don't fit. If anyone has a parts book for the Mk 6 would be interested to know the Rover no and see if the front cover is the same as the civvy one. Now I look again at the civvy parts list I see that there was both alloy and iron front covers as the parts list has three entries for the fixing studs for the water pump - one entry for S2 with alloy type front cover - one entry for S2 with cast iron type front cover, and one entry for S2A models. Its been an education this morning, I thought most 3mb 2.25s were the same, but keep turning up all sorts of differences. Steve

Today I learned mainly from civilian parts book that the S2 2.25 petrol was significantly different from the 2A 2.25 - for example it had an aluminium timing cover and 8-bolt water pump. But I don't have access to a military parts manual to compare the two. Up until now I thought the military 2.25 had the 7 bolt pump like I have on my 1969 lightweight engine, and the civilian had the 9-bolt, but did both civvy S2s and military Mk6 have the same engine/timing cover, and if so, when did the military models diverge? Civvy part nos for the ally timing cover and water pump for the S2 are 510805 and 501041, maybe someone can look up the Mk 6 part nos for me? Apols if this has been covered, I did try searching, but the search terms are tricky. Just link me to the thread if this is an old question. Steve

Hi Ted, I bought the Green Machine CD from John Thompson, and then bought the Duty Done CD later from the FBS - and its very useful, though when I search the database I don't get any hits for Boscombe - though plenty for Farnborough. One of the first 88" Landys, 83BR48 was struck off to Ministry of Supply in August 1958 after just over 2 years service, has EMER specified internal lashing points required from 1957 for air transportation. Combination of MoS and air transportation in 1956-1958 suggests Boscombe to me. It has had serious damage at some stage, so I suspect it got bent by MoS and then they sold it, e.g. via Ruddington - though haven't been able to get my hands on the Ruddington records to see if it appears. Remote possibility that MoS may have kept it on and given it a civvy reg, and I was curious to know what happened to such vehicles when the MoS was wound up. However, pretty sure that it was disposed of - as there's only one thin coat of army green over the original black chassis paint.

I wonder if new vehicles continued to get civilian numbers for a while later after MoS, especially at Farnborough. I was looking in the 'Duty Done' listing of civilian government vehicles and found ALFnnnB numbers associated with RAE Farnborough, also ALNnnnB, CYYnnnC, and DLEnnnC. So I suppose that takes us up to 1965. There is no mention of Boscombe in that listing, but the coverage is far from comprehensive, as it was initially focussed on the Civil Defence and AFS. As there is a small chance my Land Rover was used at Boscombe under a civilian number having been struck off in 1958, I would be interested in any pictures of site vehicles there in 50s and 60s and what reg numbers they were using.