Cheshire Steve

Aha ! I have found a 1950 Land Rover owners manual and that indicates that Bluecol was available back then, too. So looks like antifreeze was readily available in the UK by at least the late 1940s. Interestingly it says it is important to drain the anitfreeze mixture when the winter is over and flush several times with 'very hot soda water in order to removal all traces'. If this is not done it says it will result in boiling over problems after a couple of seasons. So the drain tap would have had a lot more use than it does these days.

Thanks very much. I will replace the mark, but more importantly it reminds me that the drain tap is seized so will have to have that off and give it the once over. I just checked and the military and civilian Land Rovers both had the same drain tap, and not a simple plug, so I guess that was part of life until use of antifreeze became commonplace, drain the engine and radiator overnight if risk of freezing. What a nuisance ! Steve

Can't help with parts but my father (who is now 92) was in 58 RSU operating in the Western Desert. There was a bit of a parts shortage at the time, so recycling downed aircraft was vital, even repairing them and flying them out of the desert. They used to get a Coles crane, and even a loaded Queen Mary, across the supposedly impassable Qattara depression. He took the odd photo using a camera from a downed reconnaissance plane - the one attached below must be the Coles crane, here finishing off loading the Queen Mary trailer. His memory is pretty flakey now, but he may remember some obscure details of using them. It would be about 1942 I should think.

Probably known to everyone, but I am new to this. I was cleaning up the front cross-member of my 1956 Land Rover (Rover Mk 5), after winch mounting holes had been replaced with welded-in tubes. As I removed a flakey black coating I came across these markings that line up with the radiator drain tap. First question is whether the marking is DP and the arrow, as it looks like there is a trace of the second letter, but can't make it out, can only see the D for sure. Next question is whether this is an indication anti-freeze was not in general use in the 1950s, as presumably it was the lack of anti-freeze that required vehicles to be drained when not in use. Or maybe it was just a precaustion in case you couldn't get any. The double marking is I think due to there being a marking on the original black chassis, which was then overpainted with a thin coat of bronze green, and the chassis re-marked. The top one is the later one and came off first with some more rubbing down. Any idea when these drain point markings were dropped? This one was struck off in 1958 to Ministry of Supply. Steve

If it is catching then I got infected very young when I fell in love with the Stalwarts, when I used to see the competition between the army and some sort of car club on the TV. Since then I have had a hankering for Stalwart, Saracen, or more recently for a Humber 'Pig' - and had a friend who had an Abbott SPG, but I never had the premises or budget these guys had. Always way out of my reach. As in the title, this one was accidental - but I am hooked on unpicking the history - heavens this is well within living memory, how hard can it be ? Pretty Hard it seems ...

Thanks, I have Pat Ware's book. Great pictures in there, though a few odd entries including the one you mention for 6/VEH/22633, as it indicates the Mk 5s lay in the chassis number range 111604808-02926. The 1116 numbers ran from 111604808 to 111605472. After the summer break they began the 1117 series, so maybe he meant up to 111702926 - which would be about mid-February 1957. For a nominal sum you can actually see the scanned images of the ledgers for 6/VEH/22633 on the RLC website. The split is more complicated than you think ! I can't paste the images on here as I think it would be a breach of their T&Cs. Regarding 6/VEH/22633 First part is for 445 Rover Mk 3 dated 28th April 1956 (it was originally for 2000 but that is crossed out) The first entry for the Rover Mk 5 was on 3rd July 1957 for 1038 - so my date in service of 27th June 1956 is interesting, and I wonder if they slipped some Mk 5s into the Mk 3 batch. Then a batch of 10 Mk 5s on 10th July 1956 on 8.20x15 tyres on 6" wide wheels Then there was a further order for 400 Mk 5s dated 15th Jan 1957. Really odd is that these were followed by an order for 100 Rover Mk 3 dated 9th May 1957 - that takes some understanding ! Possibly a clerical error with the date, unless Rover had 100 sitting around spare for almost a year, its definitely on the Rover Mk 3 order page, and both the date and wheelbase are clear as you like. I will look into Tony Hutchins book. That is one I hadn't come across. James Taylor's book, 65 Yeasr of the 4x4 Workhorse has some info on the military models too, but Pat Ware's is the best book I have come across so far. Steve

As part of getting used to this forum I thought I should try posting a photo. This is a Rover Mk 3 (94BP17) being prepared for air drop on the medium stressed platform. The Rover Mk 3 was 86" wheelbase, and is crammed on with its tail in the air to allow a trailer to be tucked on as well. When Rover replaced the 86" Mk 3 with the 88" wheelbase Rover Mk 5 in June 1956, it is clear the they would need a few to work out the implications for MSP loading. I would be very interested to hear from anyone who can fill in some more about this activity. I understand this is RASC, probably at Watchfield. Watchfield became the home of heavy drop and 16 Para heavy drop Coy was formed there in 1961. It is not clear if Watchfield was ever involved in the experimental programs. It seems more likely it was for training and exercises involving air drop as part of the operational roll-out. I think the experimental drops from Boscombe were more likely on the Larkhill drop zone. Certainly MSPs were loaded at Watchfield in the late 50s, and trucked to RAF Abingdon where they would be loaded on to Beverley's, then flown back and dropped at Watchfield. Prior to the Beverley's it seems likely that the MSP was used, at least experimentally, from USAF Fairchild C-119s that I think were leased - details are scant. Later, MSPs were dropped from the Argosy and the C-130 Hercules, though Boscombe kept their Beverley until 1971, and much of its work appears to have been on air drops. Steve

Thanks for the responses. The military reg number was provided to me based on the chassis number - info indirectly from John Mastrangelo - it no longer has the military plate. This info also contained the unusual fact it was struck off to Ministry of Supply. Clive Elliot kindly provided the EMER details. If the tub was swapped it was done over 30 years ago, as I have made contact with the person who fitted a roll cage in 1985, and those holes are still there. I would say it is unlikely it had been swapped prior to that, but can't completely exclude the fact. I appreciate that the amount of repair/replacement could mean it is only the chassis I know for sure is the original one out of the factory. But thats true of many Land Rovers - the army used to bend them and replace panels. Engines and gearboixes break and get swapped. The airborne assault museum is looking into their AATDC records to see what they have on air drop experimentation, but there seems to be a gap in the records 1956-1958. I am looking into locating A&AEE reports. There is a faint chance that I might find some history on one of the other 2 Land Rovers I mentioned, as well as mine, which might help the odds. However the development of the MSP air drop capability is an interesting story in its own right, it was the mainstay of vehicular air drop for over 40 years. So even if I find nothing, then its interesting doing the research. There's quite a thread on it now on the LRSOC forum. I am wondering if Ruddington records exist for 58-59, as it might appear in the auction list under its military number if it was damaged and sold off - with the Ministry of Supply ownership just being a paper exercise. MoS used Ruddington, it wasn't just for military vehicles. The Green Goddess/Duty Done database of Ministry of Supply vehicles records Ruddington auction numbers for many vehicles going back this far, which suggests the auction records do exist somewhere. Steve

I recently bought a 1956 Land Rover, one of the first 88" models, and have discovered it is ex-military, and I am slowly putting together evidence that suggests a rather interesting history, but it is really a struggle. I know it was sent from Rover to the Ministry of Supply on 21st June 1956, and that from there it went to 42 AVD Handforth date into service 27th June 1956 as 83BR48, together with 83BR25 and 83BR53 which shared the same date and Receipt Voucher HAN/R/301/60B, so I am told they went to the same unit. It was one of 2000 vehicles on order 6/VEH/22633 which spanned Rover Mk 3 and Rover Mk 5. While 83BR25 and 83BR53 served a fairly normal term of 7 and 8 years (though the former was struck off at Middle East Command), my example was struck-off in August 1958 going back to the ministry of supply. Needless to say there are no record carsd for these vehicles, in fact I think RLC only has one record card for the whole of 6/VEH/22633. A clue as to the unusual exit to Ministry of Supply is that the tub has tie-down points in the back, unlike any available as standard parts, and made and fitted exactly as per the EMER dated January 1957 (EMER Q 027 Mod Instr No 5 Jan 1957) and a modification specific to vehicles that are to be air-dropped. One loops survives, but the holes exist for the 5 others. Air-drop was in a fairly experimental phase during 1956-1958. The Suez crisis was on and the Beverley had just entered service. Certainly by the El Gamil raid in Nov 1956 the Medium Stressed Platform hadn't yet been approved for the Beverley, and they had to resort to using Halifaxes to drop jeeps using drop platforms said to be from a museum. Air-drop experiments were being carried out by AATDC and A&AEE using the Boscombe Down Beverley XB261, and Boscombe Down was a Ministry of Supply site until the MoS was wound up in 1959. Records from Ruddington include mention of the sale of Land Rovers damaged in air-drops. At present the most likely answer to its history is that is was damaged in an air drop experiment carried out by Boscombe Down, and the army said 'you bent it, you pay for it' and it then became a MoS problem that was either sold by them directly through Ruddington as beyond economic repair, or potentially it was repaired and used as a site vehicle. It did come fitted with a 1971 military BCF fire extinguisher mounted upright on the passenger door pillar, which is unusual if it was sold off into civilian service. I then have a huge gap from the point where it was struck-off in 1958 until 1985 when it was taken on as a project without any registration information, and was allocated an age-related number. No military unit marking were visible then, and I haven't found any. It appears to have had an extensive rebuild in the past including 86" wings, bonnet, screen, so it has clearly suffered some sort of trauma. There is also a dent in the front cross-member. Research is on-going, as is a rolling repair. It is just another Rover Mk 5 GS, so hardly worthy of restoration as a military example as there are a few lovely original examples about, but the strange history really is something I would love to find some more about ... and maybe my 1 + 1 = 3 has missed some other explanation. I am still digging in the records for any clues. Steve