Unusual (to me) British green jacket

[troutsniffer]

Hi guys, new member here. I joined as I was curious about a item I've recently picked up and thought there maybe some here who'd like to have a look at it. Sorry for the quality of the photos, I will try to dig out my decent camera and take some better ones within the next week if theres any interest.

 

I originally thought it was a 60 Pattern smock with the attached hood, when looking at the auction pictures. But after a look at it when it turned up it looks fairly unique. The hood is permanently attached, and I've not seen a label like this before. Although I am fairly new to a lot of british stuff. Lovely jacket, fits perfect also. Googled and not really come up with anything other than 60 Pattern smocks, I realise they were based on 53(?) pattern designs but haven't really found any of them on the web. Please feel free to ask away if you have any questions.

[Eaglehurst]

This may help:

 

http://hmvf.co.uk/forumvb/showthread.php?36890-ROC-Combat-Suit-early-1950s&highlight=suits+protective

[Scotch Harry]

Had that in my watch list;)

[wdbikemad]

It is basically THE original "Korean" issue British Army combat smock from 1951 to 1952 made in cotton (windproof) gabardine but an Air Ministry contract that differed in the specification by requiring the hood to be attached (rather than detachable on the Army item).........in all other respects, including the trousers, it was made to the 1951 specs.........

 

Aside from the attached hood, the Army issue changed over to cotton sateen for the smock, hood, trousers and parka during mid-1952 as gabardine was found to be less durable under extended field conditions.............but it seems that the ROC issue (apart from the hood) was manufactured to the original 1951 specs.......(less wear in an armchair....lol)

 

 

Another variation is the sizing of "Small", "Medium" and "Large", replacing the numbered Army sizing of No's 1 to 9........:-D

 

Quite a rare variation in my humble opinion........

Edited August 6, 2013 by wdbikemad

[troutsniffer]

Thanks for the link and information, makes for a interesting read. I'm glad I picked it up on a bit of a whim, I thought it probably likely people here had been watching it. I really like the attached hood feature, I'm going to ask the seller if theres any history/story behind where it came from I think. I find all this old stuff quite fascinating, incidentally Scotch Harry do you think I paid to much?

[wdbikemad]

Thanks for the link and information, makes for a interesting read. I'm glad I picked it up on a bit of a whim, I thought it probably likely people here had been watching it. I really like the attached hood feature, I'm going to ask the seller if theres any history/story behind where it came from I think. I find all this old stuff quite fascinating, incidentally Scotch Harry do you think I paid to much?

 

Not being rude, but what did you pay ?

[wdbikemad]

 

I paid a very reasonable £80 plus postage this year for this NEW matched set of decent Size 8 60 pattern smock and trousers, as good as the day they left the QM stores............but smocks alone in this size and condition have achieved almost £200 on Fleabay............a case of interest, supply and demand methinks.......:-D (I got a bargain)

[troutsniffer]

Thats in rather amazing condition, thanks for showing it. Great price indeed. Not rude at all, a opinion is always welcome. I paid £35 for it, which seems pretty reasonable knowing 60 pattern ones have been going for a lot recently.

Edited August 6, 2013 by troutsniffer
To make a bit more sense

[wdbikemad]

Thats in rather amazing condition, thanks for showing it. Great price indeed. Not rude at all, a opinion is always welcome. I paid £35 for it, which seems pretty reasonable knowing 60 pattern ones have been going for a lot recently.

 

You got a bargain.......I'd have paid almost double that........:-D

[Eaglehurst]

You got a bargain.......I'd have paid almost double that........:-D

 

I would agree. In the thread link I attached I think MHillyard stated he paid £20 for his. Iirc I did not pay much more than that for my example and yours was £35. If you think about the rarity of these items and the age it surprises me that they do not attract a much higher price. That, as many have stated, though is a function of market perception. These days market places like eBay seem to have gone insane. 59 Patt Denison smocks, which are relatively common, are going for rediculous money - decent size and condition may well see in excess of £200. It is a similar situation for 60 patt gear - I recall a post 64 size 9 60 Patt smock selling for c.£350....:nut: (- although I have noticed that the 60 Patt market has cooled somewhat over the past couple of months). Whereas much rarer 50's pattern gear (incl the ROC gear in this thread) are less well known, and desirable, and thus attract a much lower price.

Edited August 7, 2013 by Eaglehurst

[Scotch Harry]

Anybody noticed the steady supply(on a weekly basis)these days of OG 60 Patt Jkts and Trs on Ebay lately?

[wdbikemad]

I would agree. In the thread link I attached I think MHillyard stated he paid £20 for his. Iirc I did not pay much more than that for my example and yours was £35. If you think about the rarity of these items and the age it surprises me that they do not attract a much higher price. That, as many have stated, though is a function of market perception. These days market places like eBay seem to have gone insane. 59 Patt Denison smocks, which are relatively common, are going for rediculous money - decent size and condition may well see in excess of £200. It is a similar situation for 60 patt gear - I recall a post 64 size 9 60 Patt smock selling for c.£350....:nut: (- although I have noticed that the 60 Patt market has cooled somewhat over the past couple of months). Whereas much rarer 50's pattern gear (incl the ROC gear in this thread) are less well known, and desirable, and thus attract a much lower price.

 

Well stated Jason, and I agree with every word........

[Eaglehurst]

Another example of the matching trousers...

 

[wdbikemad]

Nice Jason ! Apart from the label, these are identical to the first (Army) issue trousers in gabardine made between 1951 and 1952.......

[Eaglehurst]

What is interesting is that these trousers continued to be manufactured to the same original 1951 specification as the army trousers through 1953, when the army issue versions had undergone 2 - 3 additional incarnations by that point and looked very different, in both material and design, to the orginal 1951 spec.

 

Below army incarnations 1951 to ultimate Trousers Sateen c. 1953/54 (2 different versions)...

 

 

Edited August 13, 2013 by Eaglehurst

[wdbikemad]

Nice chronological history Jason ! Have a look at the attached images.........trial combat suit, circa 1950-51, made in gabardine...........note the extra pocket on the right-side of the strides, and the pleated cuffs of the smock........

 

But the biggest difference is the buttons.........they are all "concealed".........this suit is thought to be a development of the original combat suit shown to the press during 1949......when the production garments began to appear during late-1951 all buttons were now exposed (no doubt to expedite manufacture for Korea) and the large pocket now missing from the outer right leg.......

 

[wdbikemad]

Note also, the high-leg boots worn by the figure in the cap.........and the bod in the MK4 tin hat has it on back-to-front...lol !!!

Edited August 13, 2013 by wdbikemad

[Eaglehurst]

Super photos Steve and interestingly - looks like 49-53 was a period of rapid modificiation of combat issue. I do like the photo of the chap with the tag hanging off his webbing belt!!

Edited August 13, 2013 by Eaglehurst

[Eaglehurst]

Exposed buttons, or buttons at all, seems to be the nemesis of the 51 patt gear - it does then it doesn't then it does.....

 

In the photos I have posted above there seems to be, almost, a comical back and forth as to whether you need those bloody buttons or not! I guess in trials the feedback depended on how badly said soldier needed to go...

[wdbikemad]

The official records note that the UK combat suit was based on the US garments (whether 1943 or 51 pattern)........including the sateen cloth used from mid-1952 on..........gabardine, although a great fabric, was both expensive and found to be less than robust under extended field conditions over the second Korean winter thus sateen-type cloth came on stream for the third winter during mid-late 1952..........

 

To add concealed buttons to a garment adds to manufacturing time (similar with WW2 battledress that lost the concealed buttons by 1942)......prior to the Korean War, combat clothing development had continued at a fairly leisurely pace, but experience of the first Korean winter over 1950-51 in WW2 mountain clothing and borrowed US combat and winter kit expedited UK production for our own UK combat suit, so I guess speed and volume of production overtook some practicalities such as non-snag concealed buttons........?

Edited August 13, 2013 by wdbikemad