Mark Ellis

3 minutes ago, wally dugan said:

that is what it says 00 CA 29 all on that list seem to have ended up as targets

It certainly explains the canvas either side of the vehicle 🙂 

28 minutes ago, fv1609 said:

This is the private venture put forward by FMC as the Command & Reconnaissance Vehicle to tempt the US Army who chose M114 instead. It was trialled by FVRDE on 11th June - 14th July 1964.

Swimming trials were at FVRDE site Horsea Island 29-30 June 1964

Isn't that the M113 1/2, that's in the Mudlark film? 

1 hour ago, wally dugan said:

FV 421 were numbered  from 00 CA 22 TO OO CA 31 with the exception of 00 CA 29 WHICH was a FV423  and was scrapped in 6/4/65

Thanks, @wally dugan 

So this is a 423 Command vehicle then

30 minutes ago, fv1609 said:

Another one that didn't make it.

Is that the 402, Clive?

This is the 421 off the video

Just to put the cat amongst the Pigeons.

FV421 and FV431 - and an SP FV434

FV421 with registration 00 CA 24 and 00 CA 29

FV431 with registration 06 EB 03, and P1, and 06 EB 01 marked as W1

FV434  01SP12

FV421

There is no 00 CA 2X in MERLIN, so cast before 1st January 1984.

FV431

FV434 SP

The exhaust on the FV437 comes out in the rear right corner, with the silencer being a flat box across the back of the roof

Just as a side note -

Stalwart 23EK50 (with the plain corrugated sides) is chassis number PV10. It spent a couple of years as the Diver's support vehicle with REME at Instow. Seen here in The Fleet Lagoon whilst a Chieftain tracks across from Chesil beach to  Wyke Regis Bridging camp.

I'm presuming that the bubbles are from the back of the Chieftain

1 hour ago, wally dugan said:

JUST watched WATER OBSTACLE the one with W2 is 06 EB 02 06 EB 01 was clearly shown THOSE displaying  DA series ERM should be able to find

On MERLIN, these are the only 06EB, suggesting that the FV437 had all been cast by 1st January 1984

I forgot about this one. 
About the FV437 from 13 minutes in 

https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/1060035228

They never consider issuing wheel scotches with the Stalwart.

In this video below, the Mk 1 has sunk down in soft soil. Using two snatch blocks, the mark 2 winches it out. But the mark 2 has been anchored using Heras fencing feet between the second and third wheel 

1 hour ago, Tarland said:

National Lottery Heritage fund application......one of the categories

Anyone got experience of making an application???https://www.heritagefund.org.uk/print/pdf/node/110955

I was in the Army cadets when I was a kid. The local recruitment sergeant used to bring films up for us to watch. One night he showed us a film about back line support :- RCT, ACC, REME, etc. On the film was a Stalwart towing a Centurion on a gravel track. I'd love to find that clip again.

FYI @Tarland from 2022

1 hour ago, wally dugan said:

just look at the video 06 EB 01 winches the the Stalwart out when stuck on the track

I had wondered if they had a second 437 there, as they have at least 2 432 and 3 Stalwarts. 07ER56, 57 and 58 were pretty fresh out of Coventry when this was filmed.

I'll drop BAE archives an email, and see if they have anything on the 437

He says that the engine is mounted centrally, so I guess it's right behind the commander.

22 minutes ago, Enigma said:

Giving them away is indeed not a option. So UK government, buy them and gift them to Ukraine...

Why gift them. Why not let the government take the money and pass it to the vehicle sellers?

6 minutes ago, wally dugan said:

It appears there were two prototypes P1/ 6937 and P2 /7145 these are there establishment numbers and  did not receive ERM numbers The others had numbers 06 EB 01 06 EB 02  06 EB 03 06 EB 04  and establishment numbers in order

6968/7009/7016/7026  I NEED to look further it would help to know the ERM one at CHATHAM to help confirm the above

Many thanks for this, @wally dugan I'll ring the Museum on the 7th, and see what info I can extract.

I note that the one at the museum has 3 lifting eyes on each side - compared to the one in Thailand having 2 on the sides

41 minutes ago, Tarland said:

Mark,

Agreed - there could be more than one prototype.

The square hydro - jets in the film stills definitely look like Dowty units with the "clam shell" doors for directing the water.

The RE museum vehicle has nozzle outlets which are much more like the unit on a jet ski. I think these would have had to had larger protective boxes. The rear of the RE vehicle looks very bare (its missing a buoyancy unit where the rear door would have been) and theres no evidence of attachment points.

A quick search on FV437 on the IWM web page lists another film of the amphibious trials of the FV437 and Scorpion at Instow - unfortunately its just the catalogue entry and no film has been digitised.....

The RE museum doesn't open again until 7th January, and from my experience they won't be very helpful - but I will try.

I've asked on my old regiment if anyone can nip along and grab some photos, as I know some of the lads still live around the area.

https://www.re-museum.co.uk/visit-us/

Some years ago I gave IWM a list of Stalwart and Sapper related films that they hold on their catalogue - that really need digitising. Had an email back about how the film has to be converted first at x thousand pound before being digitised. Was amazed when they did Mudlark.
British Film Industry (BFI) appear to also have some of the same films in their archive, also still on film. A lot of training films that SKC / SSVC made were all passed to BFI, which will probably never see the light of day.

1 hour ago, Tarland said:

Mark, Looking at the Chatham photos and the film stills I would say the outlets have been changed - square to round.

I'm presuming the power pack must have been moved to the crew compartment - the trunking extension looks to be where the circular crew hatch would normally be. I assume that this is protecting the pack air intakes and radiators . Exhaust arrangement is completely different from the regular FV430 series.

Of course, there may have been more than one prototype FV437 - which means it would be different anyway

35 minutes ago, Tarland said:

Mark, Looking at the Chatham photos and the film stills I would say the outlets have been changed - square to round.

I'm presuming the power pack must have been moved to the crew compartment - the trunking extension looks to be where the circular crew hatch would normally be. I assume that this is protecting the pack air intakes and radiators . Exhaust arrangement is completely different from the regular FV430 series.

There's a number of Prototype vehicles that have been given to these "Civilian" military museums, and volunteers have caused more harm than good. 

The Stalwart went through 3 changes before they settled on the production marine propulsion design. I'd wondered if the round bits were inside the rectangular outlets. 
I'll see if someone can pop over and get some close up photos of the vehicle.

Perhaps @wally dugan has something on the development of the FV437.

I'd presumed that the rectangular box around the top was part of a shallow crew area. The winch comes out the front right at the bottom, so not sure where the winch is housed, but the REME 432 had a winch in the middle of the personnel area

Stalwart PV2, with the outlet on the side of the hull

Prototype Revised Water deflector board trial vehicle - 02SP43 at Beverly

02SP43 at Aldershot museum, after a volunteer apparently removed "the wrong" splashboard

1 minute ago, Tarland said:

The bar is spring loaded and runs up a ramp to secure. Theres a slot on the back plate of the block the that the pin engages with with the T shape pin end..

I'll get a couple more pics

The number on the pin is FV599055

A video would be good as well if possible. Many thanks

13 minutes ago, Tarland said:

Thought this was worth posting in the Tracked Vehicles section

Credit to @Mark Ellis as he's posted the IWM link in relation to mobility trials with the Stalwart. Op Mudlark was a series of trials with UK and US vehicles in Thailand in 1966

The full film is at https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/1060035249

Worth a look

- you can see why the Aussies selected the M113 over FV432 for their APC requirement

- FV437 Pathfinder footage - the FV430 series answer to the FV180 Combat engineer tractor

- The FMC 113-1/2 or Lynx looked pretty capable so no wonder the US army didn't select it. They got the GM M114 instead and that was another story of inept/suspect procurement....

If anyone has more info on the FV437 it would be worth posting. Not much about it online. I think the prototype is in the RE Museum Chatham based on one grainy photo from Instagram.

 

@Tarland, the 437 is indeed sat at the RE museum, looking in a very sorry state with a Ranger Anti personnel mine dispenser sat on top of it.

It was put up against the CET as the pathfinder vehicle, but with the CET having a big bucket on the front of it - it was decided that the CET was far superior for moving earth banks at the river edge. So the 437 was dropped.

I'd be interested to know what marine propulsion units are in it if anyone finds out.

25 minutes ago, Tarland said:

Mark,

Please see attached pics of an alloy snatch block that bears some resemblence to the stills from the OP Mudlark film

The block itself has several coats of paint so nothing visible on the body but the securing pin has an FV number on it - Maybe @wally dugan @Richard Farrant could shed some light.

The certification tag states SWL of 16 Tonnes

@Tarland that's brilliant. Many thanks for uploading those.

Could you show how the pin is secured in please?

I'm guessing the little bar on the pin is for pulling the pin out with.

Thanks for this

14 hours ago, fv1609 said:

I wonder if that department is what appears in some ledgers as "MOD St Christopher House" looking at an old list of MOD departments located there this seems the most likely:

Defence Analytical Services Agency
Ministry of Defence
Room 1/124
St Christopher House
Southwark Street
London SE1 0TD

...

Just found this from 2004, which means it's out of date now

 

Defence Analytical Services Agency (DASA)

DASA is part of the UK MoD, providing professional statistical and analytical services to customers across the MoD, and, as it says in its motto, “information with insight”.

The Agency has around 160 staff spread over five sites in the south  – Bath, Bristol, Gloucester, Portsmouth and Upavon (near Swindon), and on two sites in London. This is because our staff work alongside their major customers.

DASA staff are also part of the Government Statistical Service (GSS), the corporate professional grouping to which they all belong. DASA is working towards releasing all its key publications under the National Statistics programme.

Defence Analytical Services Agency
Ministry of Defence
Room 1/124
St Christopher House
Southwark Street
London SE1 0TD

Tel: 020 7305 2193
Web: www.dasa.mod.uk/

48 minutes ago, Oh Five said:

The Karrier Bantam would most likely have been "plugged into the aerodrome" for power and communications.  If something had happened to the vehicle mechanicals then it could have been towed into position.  As well as power for radios, hazard and signal lights it would be connected by phone to the controller in the Visual Control Room (the glass room on top of the controller tower) as well as, most likely, the fire station.  

The runway control caravans are used as a final visual check for departing aircraft and aircraft on final approach.

With the small numbers built with specialist bodywork and equipment perhaps it was kept as a trailer but why the ERM would have been changed I do not know.

Dan

They changed the water carriers from dedicated water trucks to trailer mounted, because if the truck engine goes then you've lost your water - but if it's a trailer then anything can tow it.

23 minutes ago, sirhc said:

No, I only have this list as my Ferret 02CC84 is on it. 

Oh, ok.

So I guess you bought it from Withams, and they gave you this sheet? Or does the top line mean it was printed off by Withams?

I'd love to get my hands on the full MS list.

There's an ex Budge chap who has an old hard drive, which has an MS Dos file of stock - but the drive appears to be damaged

1 minute ago, sirhc said:

MS is Military Sales number. 

Would you have any of that list for stalwarts - registrations

23EK, 24EK,

60EP88, 60EP89, 61EP00

07ER, 08ER, 09ER, 10ER

16ET, 17ET. 18ET. 19ET, 20ET

89ET, 90ET, 91ET

at all please?

2 hours ago, fv1609 said:

I wonder if that department is what appears in some ledgers as "MOD St Christopher House" looking at an old list of MOD departments located there this seems the most likely:

Defence Analytical Services Agency
Ministry of Defence
Room 1/124
St Christopher House
Southwark Street
London SE1 0TD

 

Following DASA website takes you to Abbeywood where presumably your FOI ended up Mark : (

I also have notes of a list I saw (at Bovington?) of the FVBOC located in Room 5114, St Christopher House.

I emailed the FOI to cio-foi@mod.uk

Their address is 

MOD Information Rights Team
Ground floor, zone D
Main Building
Whitehall
London SW1A 2HB

They passed it to 

Defence Equipment and Support Secretariat
#2043 Maple 0a
Ministry of Defence
Abbey Wood

With the email - DESSEC-PolSecLE-JSC-WPNS@mod.gov.uk

I did email DESDESA-General-Enquiries@mod.gov.uk in June, and never had an acknowledgement let alone a response - but think that's because of what is currently going on at Abbey Wood..

I did ask a dear friend in the field

"Hi, 
Would you know - Is there a department of the Government that's responsible for military vehicle sales to other countries - that keeps records?"

And received the response

"That is actually the area that ____ is working in now – it’s DESA.  The problem they often complain about is the various previous “versions” of DESA and lose of records.  ____ is surprisingly knowledgeable himself because of working in the military vehicle area for many years."

So technically, I've asked DESA

1 hour ago, fv1609 said:

The MS series was used for "Vehicle numbers issued for overseas customers"

I have always understood that MS indicated Ministry Sales.

I had this FOI response in November 2020, when I first started delving in to the history, post service