ted angus

Ron I have an ex Army trailer pump and an ex AFS Gipsy I resprayed both in gloss Deep Bronze Green I got the paint from Frank. good service, fair price both for the paint and carriage. I sprayed the Gipsy in my garden !! to aid drying I invested in a proper synthetic spraying thinner instead of using white spirit. About 10% thinner maximum. cheap gun cheap little compressor good result.

I note one of the MILWEB sellers is advertising BS 381 colour 411 camo brown, This colour was in the original edition of BS 381 in 1930/1 as colour 11 . pre 1948 colours were just 2 numerals. In the 1948 edition they went to 3 numerals; it was achieved by half borrowing the amercan idea; In the main it was achieved by adding 1 to blues, 2 to greens, 4 was added to greys , 5 to reds 6 to greys 3 was a bit of a strange one desert type colours plus a couple of browns.

So colour 11 became colour 411 in 1948, Colours already in a standard were not included in a second concurrent standard- so this strongly suggests to me 411 does not have its origin in SCC2 .

TED

OOOOHH must save this thank you.. The oxford diecast list shows a Bedford canteen van due later in the year may be a guy ant will come along later

thanks again TED

Rick and Ron are completely correct in their observations...........but it is generally thought that the brown shade didn't make an appearance on motorcycle production lines until at least 1942....the caveat being that existing stocks of paint had to be used up first...thus, the larger volume manufacturers such as BSA, AMC, etc, probably started to use it earlier than others.......

 

The best mixing guide is to obtain samples of NOS wartime parts and get a colour match from there....even then, there are distinct variations..........but in my experience the SCC No.2 brown is a close match with British battledress uniform, or, the brown colour used on Battle of Britain era RAF aircraft cammo patterns........the Humbrol model paint range may provide a decent sample of this colour, often termed "dark earth"......

The brown colour used on BoB era ac is dark earth from the MAP/AM/RAF standard range. It would be misleading to assoociate this with the BS 987 SCC2. If you want to create an accurate colour sample for SCC 2 it can be achieved by mixing - revel paints. 5 parts No 86 and 6 parts No 84. Mike Starmer who has published widely on the subject of these colours obtained an original copy of the SCC colour cards many years ago - by experimentation he came up with that mix. You could prepare a colour sample which could then be scanned at one of the larger auto paint outlets to facilitate the manufacture of a batch, make sure it is thoroughly mixed after measuring with a pipette, then apply to a piece of card which has been pre treated with a coat of Halfords grey aerosol primer.

That said I am pretty sure the colour may well already be availible via MILWEB.

As a point of interest many of the WW2 RAF/RN aircraft colours were not included in BS 381 until the 1964 amendment. The former MAP/AM /RAF paint standard soldiered on until that time.

In 1964 the RAF Dark Earth became BS 381 colour 450, with all the evidence being that SCC2 had in the 1948 amendment become service brown BS381 colour 499 this is further confirmation they are fairly disimilar.

Finally there can be pitfalls comparing samples from NOS parts or the exposure of inner parts of bikes etc. Even without solar exposure, paint colours change with age due to the component pigments breaking down. Deep Bronze Green is a pig to touch up because it is one of just a handful of colours that actually darkens with age as opposed to fading. Some browns tend to take on a reddish hue with age. I hope this is of interest, Mrs Windsor invested many pounds in sending me on courses about paints etc how boring at the time, but a great tool when delving into both MV and model projects.

TED

Gents , Khaki Green No 3 ( KG3 ) which was the first camo colour used in WW2 was never actually contained in a BS. But manufactured to colour cards issued to contracters by the W.O.

It was replaced in service by an earthy brown colour ; This colour was contained in BS 987 which was a range of war emergency Standard Camouflage Colours (SCC) . Each colour had a number and the BS publication contained a description of each colour, ( see attached which was issued before the inclusion of SCC15.) but the only one to formally have a name was SCC 15 which was named Olive Drab. The earthy brown that replaced KG3 was SCC2. It was similar to the standard MAP/AM/RAF colour of Dark Earth but was not identical. Gradually post -WW2 the colours from BS 987 was absorbed into BS 381 and renumbered and given a name- it is widely believed SCC2 became BS 381 colour 499 Service Brown. SCC 15 is believed to have become BS 381 colour 298 Olive Drab.

John I understand both the 2 latter colours are availible from the MV paint stockists listed on MILWEB.

Strange it is black but the label says DPM ?? The MoDPoL and certain MoD military orgs had/have a large range of black combat type items , but the ones I came into contact with had a label that matched the goods !!!

The AFS/CD had far more B31s than B40s. The Scottish Office sold alltheir B40s all with CYY***C reg numbers through auction at Kinross Motor auctions in November 77 - there were approx 40 in that batch.

Your Jeep is looking great,

TTFN TED

Hi Richard thats exactly what I was looking for, I forgot to say it was a bonnet number for my 44GPW I was after.

Is Black over Brown correct for a 1944 Jeep in RAF service or would it of been just green by then ?

Can you tell me who made your stencils as they should have the correct size & font that I need, as for the number, why are they different on either side of the bonnet and what do they mean ?

Thanks Ian

 

 

 

Ian, The Jeeps arrived in UK in US OD, That colour would have been untouched until a repaint was necessary. If it arrived before April 44 it would have had the black applied on upper surfaces.

The roundal should be 9 inch outer diameter blue, then white ( 5.4 inch dia), then red (1.8 inch dia) . The B/100 should be 5 inch of a plain style. The 1900 was its type all RAF vehicles had a type number; for 5cwt 4x4 cars it was type 1900, that was to be applied on the nearside door in 3 inch , but the jeep not having doors the most convenient place, it was to applied in the format TYPE 1900. . The reg number is always prefixed RAF, It was commonly applied on the bumper. or below the screen or on BOTH sides of the bonnet. What I have quoted is from the AMOs but of course variations occurred. All the UK RAF Jeep pictures I have found are either RAF MRT, Fire service or 2TAF - with the exception of 2 group units working up in readiness for transfer to 2 TAF, Jeeps would not be a common Bomber Command vehicle, the day to day run around was either the Hillman tilly of the small commer 10 & 15 cwt light trucks.

TED

That has also been my quest for many years, I did think like you, but the more old colour footage I see the more I am torn between B & Y and red & white-- I found some old Lyneham footage with red & white chequed follow me Landies. I have the data book leaf but that again is BW

They are Ford WOT3 trucks.

My Son dived that ship with an RAF exped and I have seen lots of video and stills. There is much recorded on various sites about its content, most of which is wrong. The trucks are WOT 3 with an odd WOT1 thrown in. A Crossley Q is repeatedly labeled a Matador and an RAF aerodrome trailer mounted Land Mark Beacon is recorded as the chassis and body of a RR armoured car !! .lots of RAF kit whick also includes trolley accs. lots of motorbikes , railway stuff , hundreds of pairs of welly boots ; the list is endless

TED

rfc_raf numbers.pdf

Sorry, not entirely sure what you mean. Do you mean the letters weren't added until the sixties?

 

I can assure you that wartime ATS/WAAF/WRNS service numbers were prefixed with a letter W, That's a fact. And I have many items of uniform with the owners number marked in to back it up.

I only added WRAF as I felt sure my Mother in law said her number had a W infront in the sixties.

I am talking 1965/6 All RAF and WRAF had a prefix letter added- previously RAF/WRAF numbers had been purely numeric;

Turning to WW2 -looking on a CWGC site giving lists of female deaths WAAF did not have a prefix letter but ATS did.

TED

WAAF/WRAF numbers were preceded by a "W" to denote a woman's number.

Not correct --Females had there own blocks of numbers and in late 65 or early 66 they too were allocated a prefix letter alphabetically in service number order at the same time as the men's numbers were amended.

The project was also to do with a joint service ID card which on the reverse had a joint service air trooping card- needless to say that project failed !!

TED

It sounds as if the letter is simply a computer check letter intended to pick up on simple input errors. The chance of a number entered wrongly having the same check letter is not very high so the input would be rejected rather than being entered on somebody else's records.

When I joined in 1964 it was purely numeric, as the first computer based system came at PMC which was late 65 or early 66, we each got a letter mine was A the lad with the next number to mine was B and so on.

TED

Hi Robert you should have got my e mail but in case. afraid that is the best I have at the moment.

TED

The attached was taken during the evacuation of the area of Devon adjacent to Slapton sands. Whole farms had to be moved . From the odd pictures I have seen the application of the organisation title was not standardised on the attached they are marked DWAC- Devon war agricultural committee.

TED

I have just watched 'Heir Hunters' on BBC tv tonight. Part of it involved an ex-German soldier who stayed in the UK after WW2. There was a photo of some POW farmworkers next to a Ford WOT3 truck with the reg FUR735. Question is , there was HAEC and L72 on the driver's door. Anyone know what this means?

Overseeing agriculture in WW2 were county based committees which co-ordinated what was to be grown by who etc, allocated Land army & POW labour etc It was county based, FUR was a Hertfordshire reg number So that ties in nicely Hertfordshire Agriculture Executive Committee -- I have some notes somewhere. the L72 would be the vehicle fleet number. The committees were allocated HMG vehicles, typical would be The Fordson 7V, WOT3 Ford WOA1- exactly the same as the NFS and CD services had once the types were in greater quantities than needed by the military. Often the title was written as War Agricultural executive committee - preceded by the relevant county name. I have a photo somewhere I will dig. If you google you will find a few odd bits .

TED

I had a thought it might be the IWM one ; blimey its 10 years since I was last there.

regards TED

Tony fantastic where did it go from you ?? You say heavy I cannot believe how overloaded these were. The largest capacity I have found of this general design is a 1000gal water carrier (without booms) for the mobile photo recce units. The normal rule of thumb is a gallon of water is 10 lbs including the tank that holds it; so a 1000gal job is 10000 lbs . That is a ton and a half over the design gross weight. The type you restored were mostly 950 gal fuel or a 2 comp tank holding 850 gal fuel 100gal of oil, then add the weight of the booms etc scarey !! The firewalls appear to be a very late WW2 addition on the QL ???

Do you have anymore shots please

TED

I think it's a FWD SU-COE. A lot were supplied under lease-lend, and they were RHD which would explain the LH indicator arm.

And even the fuel tank with its front end filler ties in with the FWD. I wonder if it received the tank etc from something else ?/ the workshops out there did some fantastic conversions etc . Following from the nod that the pics came from a B-26 site,-- only 14 & 39 Sqns used those in the M.E. a couple of hours trawling last night showed both had some unsual and locally aquired MT .

TED

Gents, a PC glitch before I got my external backup system lost many of my collection of pics can any one PLEASe help with RAF Antars.

Regards TED

Quote "I am still trying to find out what the colour and finish is on this kit ??"

 

A very flat or in other parlance matte green

 

R

If you see one of these or other kit from the ALC contract parked next to other kit its a totally different green to the normal BS 295 NATO Green

Strange because it is located next to the aircraft, could it be a modification done at the base?

If it is a pure tanker, it could be used to bulk the QLs; but it may well be a refueller clutching at straws !!

I haven't seen a single period shot of RAF QL refuellers with either a firewall or front exhaust, and they also retained the rear cab window(s). The RAF AEC 854 & 0854 refuellers ; some had a full firewall some only a low level skirt. many retained the rear cab windows and most retained their original exhausts. Now RAF tankers ( non refuellers) conformed to all the regs and had full firewalls- diverted exhausts. Looking at pictures of the Autocars on the net, aviation refuellers seem to be without firewalls. I reckon the oddball in the shot is a tanker not a refueller. ?? But what.

Thanks for the further link. There is a lot on this set up on the net. I have heard this afternoon that the contract is now possibly covering RAF units with a tac mobility role - so I need to rewind on my previous. Originally the contract was for RE and certain RLC items - it is possible that 2 MT, 5001 Sqn and the MAMS boys are being partly equipped by them- I will post if I glean any info next week. .

I am still trying to find out what the colour and finish is on this kit ??

TED