ted angus

looking at several references including the WW2 Army data book The NR4 tank transporters started life as 10 ton GS and were fitted with uprated springs and replacement bodies for the TTrole.

TED

This is a real googly ball not that I like cricket but maybe the EXBX were used to move the light Vickers tanks ???

Yes I know what you mean about Clerks GD etc 60 years ago creating anomolies that haunt us today.

Worth a thought Bryan see what your new thread brings.

Chaps, I have been looking at the scans I have of the various, speed limit, passenger loading tables in the 1944 ed of the AP 3090- the EXBX is only mentioned in the bridge class , maybe the Clerks GD carried this from another document- possibly a joint service shipping list or similar - and consequently we are chasing something the RAF never had on charge. I wonder if Type 86 is an Amercan designation for an NR series ??

TED

Hi Wally could well be , they are in company with some NR6s in another shot

regards TED

HI BRYAN

Could the MACK be a NR 4 it was rated at 13 ton but I cannot at the moment find a MACK rated at 15 to

 

REGARDS WALLY

I think I have exhausted my bookshelves and boxes without result on this one- but the 6x4s carrying the Gladiators and fitted with condensor tanks would seem to be NR5s 6x4 10 tonners . I now know that the 3 Gladiators were being transferred from 112 Sqn to 6 sqn , the MACKS were driven by 112 Sqn MT drivers .

TED

Hi Brian Yes the EXBX its possible once redundant moving tanks they would be put to other uses ? just noticed the word tank is not actually in the description but certainly EXBX 18 tonners .. I have a pic somewhere of MACKS transporting Gladiators but I think they are the single tyred / solid cab NR6.

On the subject of MACKs I wonder if the S & T companies used them in Europe ?? I know the Army did. The only pictures I have of the MACK 6x4 10 tonners are 51 MTC and other units in warm climates.

regards TED

Bryan, I recently met an instructor whose father @91 is ex RAF commando (which I had not heard of- forerunner of regiment) they went in with commandos to secure airfields and he started off in Mediterranean! so I guess the above would be used? Gerry

Gerry, their full title was Servicing Commandos. They did commando training but in addition were all skilled tradesmen ; Their job was to help secure captured airfield or suitable landing strips and then undertake refuelling and rearming and at the same time defend the position. Nothing to do with the RAF Regt. There is quite a bit written about them have a google lots to find about them. There were still a few of these guys serving when I joined. In fact my Flt Sgt ( who was an Armourer) George Cohen I only called him Flt !!! at Akrotiri in 1970/71 was the last one I knew in service.

As the commander of Combined Operations Louis Mountbatten on the 22 January 1942, recommended that the Royal Air Force create a number of Commando units. These units called Servicing Commandos would accompany the Allied Armies when they invaded the continent of Europe either to make German airfields serviceable, or to make operational the new airstrips built by the Army Airfield Construction Units. Eventually 12 Servicing Commandos were formed in the United Kingdom and three in the Middle East. The force consisted of 2,400 officers and men skilled in aircraft maintenance and armaments and were capable of working on all types of aircraft to keep them flying under all kinds of conditions.^[7]

These Commando Units were trained on similar lines to the British Army and Royal Marine Commandos. Each Commando unit comprised two or three officers and between 150 and 170 other ranks. They were equipped with jeeps, motorcycles and up to 15 three ton trucks. Commando units were involved in the major seaborne landings, either going in with the initial invasion forces or giving active support in other ways to keep the aircraft flying.^[7]

Far East [edit]

As well as the 15 Servicing Commandos in Europe and the Middle East three smaller units were formed in India, and called Servicing Parties. Each Servicing Party comprised one officer and 30 men. These units were part of the R.A.F. Support Group and supported the Chindits during Operation Thursday. After the surrender of the Japanese Forces in August 1945 they took over Japanese held airfields, assisted in the evacuation of Allied prisoners of war and undertook other peace keeping duties in Java, Thailand and French Indo China.^[7]

Operations [edit]

In the Mediterranean Servicing Commandos took part in operations in North Africa, landings in Sicily, landings in Italy and landing in the South of France. Servicing Commando units also took part in the Normandy landings and afterwards some units were withdrawn for service in the Far East.^[7]

Formed in the United Kingdom

• No. 3201 Servicing Commando was formed in March 1942 from men serving in RAF Fighter Command and served in North Africa, Sicily, Italy and the South of France.

• No. 3202 Servicing Commando was formed in March 1942 from men serving in RAF Fighter Command and served in North Africa, Sicily, Italy and the South of France.

• No. 3203 Servicing Commando was formed in March 1942 from men serving in RAF Fighter Command and served in North Africa, Sicily, Italy and the South of France.

• No. 3204 Servicing Commando was formed in February 1943, from men serving in RAF Fighter Command and served in North Africa.

• No. 3205 Servicing Commando was formed in April 1943 from men serving in RAF Fighter Command and served in Normandy, India, Burma, French Indo-China, Malaya, Thailand and Java.

• No. 3206 Servicing Commando was formed in February 1943 from men serving in RAF Fighter Command and served in North Africa.

• No. 3207 Servicing Commando was formed in April 1943 from men serving in RAF Fighter Command and served in Normandy, India, Burma, French Indo-China, Malaya, Thailand and Java.

• No. 3208 Servicing Commando was formed in April 1943 from men serving in RAF Fighter Command and served in Europe.

• No. 3209 Servicing Commando was formed in April 1943 from men serving in RAF Fighter Command and served in Normandy, India, Burma, French Indo-China, Malaya, Thailand and Java.

• No. 3210 Servicing Commando was formed in April 1943 from men serving in RAF Fighter Command and served in Normandy, India, Burma, French Indo-China, Malaya, Thailand and Java.

• No. 3225 Servicing Commando was formed in August 1942 from men serving in RAF Army Cooperation Command and served in Sicily and Italy.

• No. 3226 Servicing Commando was formed in March 1942 from men serving in RAF Army Cooperation and served in Sicily and Italy.^[7]

Formed in the Middle East

• No. 3230 Servicing Commando was formed in April 1942 from men serving in RAF Middle East Command and served in Sicily and Italy.

• No. 3231 Servicing Commando was formed in April 1942 from men serving in RAF Middle East Command and served in Sicily and Italy.

• No. 3232 Servicing Commando was formed in April 1942 from men serving in RAF Middle East Command and served in Sicily and Italy.^[7]

Formed in India

• No. 1 Servicing Party was formed from men in RAF Far East Command and served in India, Burma, Java, Thailand and French Indo China.

• No. 2 Servicing Party was formed from men in RAF Far East Command and served in India, Burma, Java, Thailand and French Indo China.

• No. 3 Servicing Party was formed from men in RAF Far East Command and served in India, Burma, Java, Thailand and French Indo China.^[7]

Battle honours [edit]

The following Battle honours were awarded to the British Commandos during the Second World War.^[8]

[TABLE=class: multicol]

[TR]

[TD]

• Adriatic

• Alethangyaw

• Aller

• Anzio

• Argenta Gap

• Burma 1943–45

• Crete

• Dieppe

• Dives Crossing

• Djebel Choucha

• Flushing

• Greece 1944–45

• Italy 1943–45

• Kangaw

• Landing at Porto San Venere

• Landing in Sicily

• Leese

• Litani

• Madagascar

[TABLE]

[TR]

[TD][/TD]

[/TR]

[/TABLE]

[/TD]

[TD=class: multicol-gutter][/TD]

[TD=width: 48%, bgcolor: transparent]

• Middle East 1941, 1942, 1944

• Monte Ornito

• Myebon

• Normandy Landing

• North Africa 1941–43

• North-West Europe 1942, 1944–1945

• Norway 1941

• Pursuit to Messina

• Rhine

• St. Nazaire

• Salerno

• Sedjenane 1

• Sicily 1943

• Steamroller Farm

• Syria 1941

• Termoli

• Vaagso

• Valli di Comacchio

• Westkapelle

[/TD]

[/TR]

[/TABLE]

TED

Ted- Thanks for that, most of the QL series photos i have are from the front, so maybe I just didn't notice that little extra bit of length on the body. Also it wasn’t mentioned in any of the wartime literature, although I’m only just making headway into the post-war Databook. (P.S. the papers were sent out today)

 

Gordon- There is an excellent series of books published by the Small Craft Group, a class directory of all the marine craft used by the RAF. It does include, in the last volume on assorted sundries, a single DUKW locally and completely unofficially acquired somewhere in the Med. for jollies by the airmen. But that would be no reason to include it in the bridge classification system.

 

Wally- I had wondered the same with regards to it being a direct copy of the Army list. However it is otherwise absent of “Army specific” vehicles, if that makes sense?

Bryan thank you !!!! I will see what other QLT pics I have

Wally in some of the RAF bridge lists I think some direct copying from the Army went on- I have one that includes the MACK 6x4 18 ton tank transporter ??

TED

Hi Bryan, the QLT was a fairly common one, used as a crewbus on bomber stations , and for general passenger carrying . Often wondered why the Vickers tank is in the data book but some of the Regt units were strangely equipped, certainly had 2 & 6 pounder anti tank guns in the Italy theatre. DUKWs that is a head scratcher Xmas Island or early Gan Days maybe ?????

the attached is Middleton St George 3 QLTs in shot.

TED

HI PETER

I agree with your comments on age on photographs but it also applys to colour cards I was very lucky that lived near to

mr Gerry Barton who owned a company called The HUMBER OIL COMPANY who made amongst other things paint for

the WAR DEPARTMENT during the war and kept lots of original colour cards and orders and they kindly let me copy what they had as you say a fascinating subject The name Humber Oil Company may not mean alot to some but I bet the name

HUMBROL does

 

 

REGARDS WALLY

Hi Wally I know the name I was a crew commander at Queens Gardens in 77/78 we had an electrical fire in one of the tumbling machines there ; I understand the cards were to be kept in boxes away from light in an even temp. Even today the US Federal fans of colour cards come boxed. As Peter said with a photo you don't even start with the right colour reproduction, I was researching some old RAF fire tenders and stumbled on a host of photos and the vehicle bodies all looked white or possibly very light grey - A friend who used to lecture on the subject informed me that there was a type of monochrome film in use up until the early 1970s which reproduced Red as an off white; These things were all set up many many years ago to lead us down the garden path. Cards are the best answer especially if they have been stored correctly . Some years ago the RAF Museum reproduced the colours from the Air Ministry/ Min of Aircraft Production cards and sold then in their shop and by mail order- I wonder if Bryan could twist some arms with the SCC cards ?????

best Wishes

TED

Thanks All

 

I shall go to my paint supplier clutching my copy of Mike Starmer's NWE/France book, ask to see a sample of BS381c No 499 Service Brown - and compare the two. If it's something like, I'll use that in the absence of a good ready mixed alternative.

 

SK

But remember the sample of 499 you will be shown will be glosss and your needs are matt you saw in my low tech test, that in matt it looks a totally different colour !

I heard that during the Gulf war a batch of vehicles were sent to a civilian contactor to paint sand coloured. They got the paint a bit too yellow and the unit was called the 'Banana Custard Crowd'.

We ( the RAF) used FS 30279 sand ( as seen on the RAF Tornados etc often called gulf war pink) and BS 361 Lt stone for our MT and mass of support equipment . The colour to be used was dictated by the location the stuff was being prepared for. Anyway there were some stocks of light stone but very little for the Sand- The sand had been chosen in the late 1980s after trials At Kingfield airstrip in Cyprus with a Herc. Little did they know it would be needed in anger so quiickly. Any way once MU stock was used there was massive amount of signal traffic detailing mix formulas. The mixing was to be done in Galvanised dustbins; You can imagine when the lads turn up to barrack stores and say to the civvy in charge " The Warrant sent us for 6 new dustbins " You are not entitled to dustbins all your sections have skips ! What we were doing at that stage was behind locked doors - anyway we got the bins and at the same time had been tracking down masses of paint for the mixes; the guys were working 16 hour shifts 24/7 in a redundant hanger with useless lighting . As we finished stuff it was forked or towed out , thankfully the weather was being kind. One night we did 20 containers for transporting/ storing aircraft drop tanks - each was the size of a 40 ft ISO; I couldn't believe the differences in shade the next morning, one problem was we were mixing paint from every manufacturer you could imagine . I have a couple of books that contian pictures of some of the banana trucks, they were done mostly in Germany.

I imagine the units in Germany had an even worse problem getting paint for the mixes, everything was detailed by the colour BS number, of course in Germany its the RAL standard and for many shades there is no direct correlation- hence some of the banana fleets that headed from Europe to the Gulf.

So in conclusion it came as no surprise to see some of the finished products that turned up in-theatre. It was yet another example of we don't have the right stuff but by hook or by crook we will get the job done to an acceptable standard in the required timescale. Right no more sand bag stories.

TED

HI

 

I think the debate on the right shade of wartime paint is one which I think will go on and on the problem seems to be there is a lot of I think about when really we are not sure most of us where not even born when these colours were being used

yes there are colour photos about which are a great help yes there are books on the subject and as pointed out with mistakes written years after the event most are used as source of reference without any way of it seems proving for

sure one way or other they are correct AS I said in a earlier post I have being collecting paint samples and Data for

many years on this subject and do not feel that I by any means no the answers also I was in a better position than most

to do it these are my thoughts on this subject

 

 

REGARDS WALLY

Wally, whilst I have never wholey subscibed to matching to parts to get a colour, the practise has revealed and confirmed many thoughts. However we do have the definative answer for several colours; In those days the relevant authority, be it the C.D.Cam Establishment, BS or AM/MAP, issued colour cards to paint manfacturers for matching. These cards exist ; Bryan mentions above that he has been looking at the RAF Museum set of SCC colours today. We also know that virtually all the wartime colours be it SCC in the BS range or the AM/MAP specs for aircraft were subsumed into BS 381 from the 1948 edition onwards. The problem we suffer from is we are rediscovering what we already knew !! I was convinced that SCC2 had become Service Brown, I had forgotten that in the distant past this fact had been confirmed. One thing that tends to put people off X refering to BS 381 is the fact all the WW2 colours except Sky ( S) were matt - whereas BS 381 C has always used Gloss in its samples - my little experiment today shows just how different a colour looks with the application of matt varnish over gloss; something that gets even more complicated when we consider the MoD has used 7 levels of reflectivity from Matt to High Gloss. and each level looks a different colour to the next. One trap that the matching from parts suffers from is some colours fade with age and or solar degredation whereas some change tint, then there are examples that actually darken - Deep Bronze green being one that really darkens - A facinating subject - one day I will tell you about us mixing the colours for gulf war 0ne in dustbins - but thats another story.

TED

Hi Bryan , using varnish was just my low tech way of producing Service Brown in Matt from the gloss on the ammo tin.. your bright green is possibly SCC 8 or 9 ???

SCC 2 became a standard government vehicle colour, in my collection I have a file on painting Civil Defence vehicles. they used SCC2 to replace BS 32 Battleship grey on rescue service vehicles. the spec called for SCC2 mixed with 50% gloss varnish because they DIDN'T want a matt finish !!! I am pretty certain Ministry of Supply vehicles went into SCC2 ;

Sorry I digress

take care TED

Hi Bryan your option 3 would account for the the erronious mention of yellow in A 897 and on plate 1 of A 486; the full title of 33a 125 gives the word yellow before the word orange- you would think those guys beck in time would have made life a bit easier for us delvers into history LOL !

Regards

TED

Right chaps, just painted a section of the gloss service brown ammo box with Matt varnish I am now 200% certain we are now looking at SCC2 . the matt gives a real change to the colour and its a great match for the colour chip in Mike Starmers UK camo scheme book. photo to be added shortly ; photo nopw added

nothing technical, chose an area of the box , wiped with a clean dry rag, gave half the area one coat of matt varnish with a scabby brush !

TED

Bryan, my copy of AMO 486 of 44 is simply states Orange 33a 125 no DEEP or BRIGHT. During the period 1931 to 1948 BS 381 colours only had 2 numerals i.e. RAF Blue grey was No 33 The only orange in my copy was No 57 which in the 1948 amendment of the BS became 557 and a name amendment to Light Orange; At the same time a new colour was added, this was 591 with the title Deep Orange. I previously spoke to Hendon to see if they had a 33a extract from AP 1086 but they said no !! I recall the hardcopy AP 1086 in the good old days gave a BS or AM/MAP spec reference against every sec/ref- can you help ??? I have some repro early BS charts "somewhere " I will have a dig, Mean while this Albion is displaying the double disc marker which was the alternate to orange upper surface. Apologies for the subject drift .

regards TED

I'm sure we had a set of SCC colour cards in a cabinet at work- the sort issued to manufacturers during the war to ensure they had the right colour. They had been kept in boxes for as long as anyone knows.

I'll have to take a look for them now.

Bryan have a look at the link I just put some info re yellow upper surfaces.

http://hmvf.co.uk/forumvb/showthread.php?39196-how-many-Austin-K6-s-are-there/page3

TED

Hi Stu,

More than happy to help, the colours depend on the time period.

As for the yellow:

from 1944 vehicles regularly used in the movement area of an airfield had their upper surfaces in BSC 591 Deep Orange : http://www.e-paint.co.uk/Lab_values.asp?cRange=BS%20Other&cRef=BS%20591 (before ’44 the actual shade/hue wasn’t specified, just “bright orange”)

 

From 1957 (or at least that’s the earliest mention I’ve found so far) The colour changed to BSC 356 Golden Yellow: http://www.e-paint.co.uk/Lab_values.asp?cRange=BS%20381C&cRef=BS381%20356

 

Regards

Bryan

Bryan, have a look at AMO A 897 of 44 para 12 it refers to AMO486 of 44 as amended by AMO 518 of 44 re "the painting of the upper surfaces of certain vehicles in yellow"; now it becomes a confused muddle because the leading paragraphs of AMO 486 calls for yes you guessed orange !! sec ref 33A 125 However- plate 1 of this AMO gives yellow as the colour, but yellow is subsequently amended to orange on plate 1 by AMO 518 !!!

Any luck with post 1954 stuff ?

regards TED

I may just have a decent ammo box or two in the war reserve store !!! I will give part of one a dose of matt varnish and see what the result is . I will try and post the result tomorrow evening.

Service Brown is a true brown its the colour on all the steel ammo boxes. I had always understood SCC2 became Service Brown by title when it became an addition to BS 381C 0n the demise of the war emergency spec. SCC2 was always in Matt , All the samples of Service Brown I saw were gloss , the change of sheen makes a real difference to the colour to the eye ! - one thing is certain there is not a hint of green !!!!

Thanks John. Just seen your Champ in the new Classic Land Rover magazine !!

TED

http://hmvf.co.uk/forumvb/showthread.php?39519-1964-lwb-Austin-Gipsy-(ex-AFS)-amp-1943-Coventry-Climax-trailer-pump-(-ex-Army-FS)

Back and other health issues tell me its time to call it a day !!!

They were built by Thomas Cook in Cairo for the RAF. It was just for No 2 Arm Car Company. The then-World's number one travel company they had fleets of vehicles in the Middle East and full vehicle workshop facilities to support them. I think it was mid 1940.

The government would have been foolish to put all their eggs in one basket by going for the Bedford QL, so the Austin K5 and Fordson WOT6 supplemented supplies of 3 ton 4x4 lorries, as did the Karrier. Development costs of the Karrier would not have been great as it shared a lot of its mechanical components with the gun tractor and armoured car. The cab looks like it was knocked together one night on overtime . The production numbers might be low because the factory was concentrating on Humber Armd Car production. The government were telling the manufacturers what they required from them.

My Dad was on that night shift-LOL-- I think the Karrier 3tonner might have predated the QL ?? From what he told me it was just a rebodied gun tractor hence the winch; The Humber arm car was to be called the Karrier Arm car but to prevent the overuse/ confusion with the many differing Carriers, Rootes chose Humber. My Dad was one of only a few who could operated a huge lathe which played some part in machining turret rings, he retired dec 1979 from the factory and that lathe was still in use for occasional jobs. For some reason it was marked property of the Air Ministry/ Min Aircraft Production.

He was alo involved in building the proto Commer Q4 4x4 post war-- but I digress

TED

Been around MVs for 39 years in the RAF was involved with the GGs on both the 77/78 and 2002/3 national strikes, things green, Lt Stone, green & black are in my blood; in 97 bought a pile of 1943 ex Army scrap which became a gleaming coventry climax trailer pump, in 2003 went after a 1942 Morris to tow the pump, back prevented an enjoyable drive so bought a 1964 ex AFS Gipsy, the Gipsy and pump have been my pride & joy and Mrs A and the lab made a great crew. Mrs A's health means she canno longer do any lifting to help me and my back just gets worse; 3 weeks ago had the wheels off to give the brakes a going over- couldn't lift the wheels back on even using all my well developed techniques ! that night I put together an advert and the pair are up for sale ! Common sense must prevail and I have to stop kidding myself I can carry on with the hobby !! I will now concentrate on my other hobby which is in 1/76th scale.

Regards

TED