Matt W

Don't let him drive you away Paul, this is good fun! Because I enjoy a challenge I've tried to work out some figures for this. These are only estimates, I'm not an Engineer (Civil or RE). Churchill tank dimensions 7.62mtr L x 3.25mtr W x 2.69mtr H. Buried at 35mtrs (To avoid GPR!) I have arranged the Churchills in 16 rows of 20 tanks (320 in total, leaving 6 out) and given them a 10mtr space for access. 16 x 7.62mtrs + 10mtrs = 162.40mtrs long, 20 x 3.25mtrs +10mtrs = 62mtrs x 35mtrs = Total volume of excavation 352408Cbm Plus two ramps into the excavation allow two Aveling dump trucks to pass each other = 10815Cbm Overall excavation total 374038Cbm. To dig out this hole I have used two Road Construction Coy RE (Their WE shows 4 x excavators each) Machines used are Bucyrus 37s with a bucket capacity of 0.9556Cbm, capable of moving 86Cbm / hour. Output figure are from "RE Guide to Mechanical Equipment" 1944. Bucyrus 37 move 688Cbm per hour. I have set the working week as 5 days of two 12 hour shifts. 2 hours per shift for maint, refuelling, etc, so 10 hours digging per shift. Saturday is a maint and overhaul day and Sunday is a rest day. 374038Cbm divided by 688Cbm = 543hours or 5.43 weeks to dig the hole. Meanwhile, an RASC Tank Transporter Column is moving the tanks to Waterbeach. The nearest AVSD to Waterbeach was at Abbotts Ripton, 23.78 miles away. Allowing for 2 runs per day it will take 10 days for all the tanks to be moved.

Absolutely, but it was a secret hole.

Paul, maybe he hid the spoil and buried the vehicle docs under it?;-)

As for digging tanks in, this would be in disregard of the core doctrine of the RAC and would never have even been considered. It was tried during the Kaiserslacht but never repeated.

No, you haven't a clue. You obviously have never served in the Forces, there is documentation for everything. Was your Dad in the RAOC? If not he would have been no where near the paperwork. As for this Russian invasion threat, the Soviet Navy at the time was a small coastal force with ZERO capability for an opposed landing at distance. It did not develop into a blue water fleet until the Gorshkov reforms of the early Sixties. Who isn't well read?

Well done Paul, at last some proper answers! Don't forget the Vehicle Record cards at the Tank Museum, none of which i checked showed being buried as a disposal option! The invasion of the UK is a new one. If the Government was that concerned why were all the new Centurions being shipped straight to BAOR?

Churchills in a US Army depot? Blank spaces - how do you know tanks were parked there?

Yes, they could well have been. I'll try searching with that. Just wish I'd taken photos!

Thanks!

I was looking at some old photos of Ayrshire Barracks last night which reminded me of something that's been bugging me for years. At the end of Op Granby I'm sure a fleet of Scania tractor units and trailers that had been captured in Iraq were backloaded to BAOR. They were parked up in 608 MCTG RCT's lines at Ayrshire Barracks still in their desert paint schemes. Over the next months they were sent out to the local Scania dealer in Monchengladbach were they were fitted with new (Aluminium?) wheels and painted green. The trailers were also reworked in a similar fashion as the original wheels made them out of gauge when loaded. Once back on the road 608 used them to replace some of their older Seddon Atkins on the BAOR freight service. Does anyone else remember these Scanias? I've searched the web and haven't found a thing. Unfortunately I didn't take any photos at the time.

Do you know the location of the photo please?

Many thanks to both! Could be a from a hard target not on the maps.

Thanks, it was a long shot anyway!

At Adrian's (Le Prof) suggestion I have re-posted this in the Artillery section. This was a fragment of an ID plate found on a local former tank range. The site is off the impact area and I believe it's where scrapping took place. The text appears to read - 6 AT III /41 Adrian suggests this refers to Ordnance QF 6pdr Airborne, A/Tank gun MkIV on Carriage Mk III, built 1941. Can anyone confirm this please?

Many thanks Adrian, I'll give it a try

Out walking on the former firing range near us this morning. As we passed the remains of one of the hard targets I said to my daughter that we would never know what kind of tank it had been without finding some kind of ID plate. So of course the first thing I picked was the fragment of an ID plate! From what I can make out the lettering is - 8.AT. III /41 I know it's a long shot but can anyone identify what this means? Thanks

Good point Sean, one i hadn't considered. Another thing that just occurred to me is that with National Service the Army had plenty of manpower to spare to look after all this kit. The answer probably lies in the DRAC / War Office policy on retention of armour. I might try searching for this in the National Archive.

Last part! I admit that the figures above are only a small sample, that all the dates/VRNs are after the Post War renumbering and these are the figure for only one RAOC vehicle depot. However, I think the main points are these - 1) There was no rush by the War Office to dispose of vehicles. 2) The Churchill tanks were retained in storage well into the 1950s 3) The tanks were obsolete, but the War Office had to be pressured to dispose of them 4) That all the vehicles were recycled as scrap due to metal shortages As such, I don't believe the Waterbeach story for a minute. I've heard similar stories regarding CVD Ashchurch (Crates of Jeeps buried under the main square) and 17 BVD Monchengladbach (Wehrmacht vehicles buried under the trailer park). Just urban myths. I'm going to leave the last word to a member of 41 AVD - May 1959 4 Vehicle Group, Selby There were a number of heavy hearts amongst the few who were left as we watched the Tank Transporter rumble out of the Gate bearing the last tank to the Breaker's Yard, after twelve months of hard work, during which time many thousands of A and B Vehicles have been backloaded or sold by Auction. The awful feeling of emptiness and silence has begun to take its effect—it isn't a very nice feeling after the bustle and noise one normally associates with a busy Vehicle Depot.

Part 4 "Junk" and "Scandal"! The main point of all this is that there seems to have been no rush to dispose of a substantial number of A vehicles and that the War Office had to be prompted to get rid of them by the Government. Why were 48 Churchill Mk4 6Pdrs retained until 1958? This was a tank that was obsolete in 1945! As a further point, all the cards checked (With one exception - a Sherman sent as a hard target to RAF Skipwith range) showed that the vehicles had been sold for scrap. With the shortages of metals and the Sterling exchange rate it's a wonder that most of these vehicles lasted well into the 1950s. Many of the vehicles were scrapped by Thomas Ward of Sheffield. I did contact their researcher to see if any records remain but the archives are still being catalogued. The researcher did send a nice image from the company archive -

Part 3 As we can see above, there was no rush to dispose of any vehicles. The depot was alongside the old East Coast Main Line so the vehicles were in full view to the public (My late Father described it as an field covered in rusty tanks). This obviously upset some people and there were a number of exchanges in the House of Commons - Stored Tanks and Vehicles, Yorkshire HC Deb 12 February 1957 vol 564 c1057 1057 § 17. Mr. Shinwell Asked the Secretary of State for War the number of tanks and Army vehicles stored in the open between Doncaster and York and for what purpose they are being maintained. § Mr. Hare About 8,000. Over 3,000 of these are being disposed of. The balance are working stocks and Army reserves. § Mr. Shinwell Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that most of this junk has been lying there for the last five or six years, and that what is happening is that many of these vehicles have been sent away for repair and brought back to that depot again? Is he also aware that the manpower used in that depot is far in excess of what is required, and that the whole thing is a positive scandal? Why does he not put a stop to it? § Mr. Hare The right hon. Gentleman has said it has been there for five or six years. I think that probably it was there even in his time. I can assure him that I am certainly not satisfied with the general position. I am going into all this, and hope to be able to take steps in respect of disposals, and to see that as far as possible no unnecessary stocks are retained. § Mr. Chetwynd Can the right hon. Gentleman say how these vehicles are being disposed of and for what purpose? Are they treated as scrap, or are they disposed of for some military purpose? § Mr. Hare The Ministry of Supply is responsible for the actual technique of disposal, which is left to its judgment. HC Deb 02 April 1957 vol 568 cc224-5 224 § 29. Mr. Shinwell Asked the Secretary of State for War whether he has yet disposed of the 8,000 tanks and other vehicles situated between Doncaster and Selby. 225 § Mr. John Hare Since the right hon. Gentleman asked a similar Question about this depot on 12th February, 600 wheeled vehicles have been disposed of and the sale of 400 more is beginning this month. One thousand eight hundred tanks and other fighting vehicles are in the process of being sold or prepared for sale. § Mr. Shinwell Can the Minister say whether the same maintenance staff is being retained there? § Mr. Hare I will certainly look into that point. This ordnance depot was started by the right hon. Gentleman in 1948 or 1949. We cannot hope to close it in the immediate future, but we are running down large quantities of vehicles in the immediate future. § Mr. Osborne Can my right hon. Friend say what price he got for the vehicles being sold, and how much has been lost on them, compared with what they cost? § Mr. Hare Without notice I cannot do that. If my hon. Friend will write to me I will try to obtain the information for him. HC Deb 22 April 1959 vol 604 c383 383 § 32. Mr. Shinwell Asked the Secretary of State for War whether the tank and vehicle depot near Selby has now been cleared; and what is to be its future use. § Mr. H. Fraser The depot, which was originally an airfield, has been cleared and is being returned to the Air Ministry. I understand that it will be put up for disposal. § Mr. Shinwell Have all the tanks and vehicles which were regarded as obsolete on this site been sold or have they been transferred to some other depot, and if so, where? § Mr. Fraser They have been disposed of by the Ministry of Supply. There are 8,000 vehicles concerned; they have been sold, in some cases for scrap, and others have been disposed of elsewhere. On the more general question of the disposal of stores, I am glad to be able to inform the right hon. Gentleman that in the last two years thirty-nine ordnance depots have been closed and we are closing twelve more this year.

Part 2 As above, a fair selection of A vehicles used. As an aside, these cards are freely available at the Tank Museum for inspection, no cover up there. These are the dates that the above vehicles were Struck Off Strength (SoS) - Year SoS Quantity 1952 15 Sherman Mk 1C 10 Sherman Mk V Crab II 5 1953 29 Churchill ARK Mk 2 (Italian Pattern) 3 Churchill Mk 6 14 Churchill Mk 8 12 1954 140 Carrier Universal 6 Churchill Mk 4 6Pdr 5 Churchill Mk 4 Unarmoured 2 Churchill Mk 6 127 1955 76 Churchill ARK Mk 2 (Italian Pattern) 3 Churchill AVRE Mk 4 1 Churchill Mk 10 3 Churchill Mk 4 6Pdr 6 Churchill Mk 4 75mm 15 Churchill Mk 5 32 Churchill Mk 5 F/W A. Armour 1 Churchill Mk 6 10 Cromwell Mk 4 FS "E" Command 1 Cromwell Mk 4 FS "E" Control 1 Valentine Bridgelayer 3 1956 7 Churchill AVRE Mk 4 3 Churchill Mk 4 6Pdr 1 Churchill Mk 4 75mm 2 Churchill Mk 6 1 1957 28 Cromwell Mk 4 FS 4 Cromwell Mk 7 1 Ram 25Pdr 23 1958 67 Carrier Wasp 5 Churchill ARV Mk 2 3 Churchill Mk 4 6Pdr 48 Churchill Mk 4 75mm 1 Churchill Mk 5 4 Churchill Mk 7 Crocodile 3 Cromwell Mk 7 3 1959 10 Churchill AVRE Mk 4 1 Comet 1B 9 And these are the SoS dates particularly for the Churchills - Year SoS Quantity 1953 29 Churchill ARK Mk 2 (Italian Pattern) 3 Churchill Mk 6 14 Churchill Mk 8 12 1954 134 Churchill Mk 4 6Pdr 5 Churchill Mk 4 Unarmoured 2 Churchill Mk 6 127 1955 71 Churchill ARK Mk 2 (Italian Pattern) 3 Churchill AVRE Mk 4 1 Churchill Mk 10 3 Churchill Mk 4 6Pdr 6 Churchill Mk 4 75mm 15 Churchill Mk 5 32 Churchill Mk 5 F/W A. Armour 1 Churchill Mk 6 10 1956 7 Churchill AVRE Mk 4 3 Churchill Mk 4 6Pdr 1 Churchill Mk 4 75mm 2 Churchill Mk 6 1 1958 59 Churchill ARV Mk 2 3 Churchill Mk 4 6Pdr 48 Churchill Mk 4 75mm 1 Churchill Mk 5 4 Churchill Mk 7 Crocodile 3 1959 1 Churchill AVRE Mk 4 1

I've been following this thread since it started and have decided to add my thoughts on it. Depending on how Igo this may a very long post! The main point as I understand it is that 326 Churchill tanks were buried at Waterbeach airfield and there has been a Government cover up. First, here are a couple of photos - These show 41 Armoured Vehicle Depot RAOC at Burn near Selby. The depot was situated on the former RAF Burn airfield, these photos were taken in 1952. From the above you can see that each dot on the runway is a vehicle. At one point there were approximately 8000 vehicles stored in the Depot. Some years ago I did some research at the Tank Museum checking the A Vehicle record cards for vehicles stored at 41AVD. Unfortunately I only had a morning before being dragged off to Monkey World with the family! Although the number of cards checked was small the results were interesting - Vehicle Type Quantity ACV 6x6 HP CP 9 AEC Armoured Car Mk 3 7 AEC Armoured Car Mk 3 6Pdr 4 Carrier 3" Mortar 4 Carrier Universal 6 Carrier Wasp 5 Churchill ARK Mk 2 (Italian Pattern) 6 Churchill ARV Mk 2 3 Churchill AVRE Mk 3 2 Churchill AVRE Mk 4 56 Churchill AVRE Mk 6 11 Churchill Mk 10 3 Churchill Mk 4 6Pdr 60 Churchill Mk 4 75mm 18 Churchill Mk 4 Unarmoured 2 Churchill Mk 5 38 Churchill Mk 5 F/W A. Armour 1 Churchill Mk 6 152 Churchill Mk 6 Flail 3 Churchill Mk 7 Crocodile 3 Churchill Mk 8 12 Churchill Mk 8 Crocodile 3 Comet 1B 9 Cromwell Mk 4 FS 4 Cromwell Mk 4 FS "E" Command 1 Cromwell Mk 4 FS "E" Control 1 Cromwell Mk 6 20 Cromwell Mk 7 4 Ram 25Pdr 23 Ram APC 2 3 Ram GPO 5 Sexton 25Pdr 1 Sherman BARV 11 Sherman Dozer 4 Sherman Mk 1C 10 Sherman Mk 2 10 Sherman Mk V Crab II 5 Sherman Mk V DD 11 Valentine Bridgelayer 3 Grand Total 533 TBC in part 2

Does anyone know which units would have used the Bedford QLC 6 Ton Artic please?

I was at Ashchurch in the late 80s, any civvy cars returned from NI were either sent straight for scrap or went out to the ranges for use as target. I think the EOD Centre also got a few to practice on.

Commanders at Ploce Docks, Croatia, 1995. Taking 43s up to Mount Igman for 19 Fd Regt,