rewdco

Found this photograph of a civvy bike on an auction site...

Sure Lex! But I’m still working on the Terry saddles…

Can't see any difference with the original one Ron! 👍

It’s odd… That’s why… 😂

The WD/C either had a Terry (with D shaped nose plate), or a Dunlop. The illustration below is for an early WD/CO, which was using the same saddles. A WD/C wouldn't have had the knee grips though. But your saddle definitely isn't a Terry. Don't know what it is, something French maybe...?

Interesting point Rik. The late war parts lists show that the Terry Universal saddle (which was called the S831) and the Lycett Universal saddle shared the same cover. And this common ("universal") cover has a Terry part number: MT1/TE/S831/2. Same situation for the rear springs. Here some more pictures of the post war "universal" cover:

The Lycett post war saddle: After the war the Brooks saddle (with coil springs) replaced the Lycett saddle (with elastic bands). But the post war saddles were called “Lycett”, not "Brooks", no doubt this had something to do with marketing. The badge on the cover was now a simple “Lycett” badge, obviously they didn’t use the “Lycetts - “AERO” Elastic Saddle Patented” brass badge any more.

The Brooks Universal saddle: In late 1943, when the Universal saddles were introduced, Brooks also started producing a Universal version. The basic frame is still a Lycett version, but with round holes for the coil spring hooks instead of oblong holes for the elastic bands. And of course the two pairs of mounting holes at the front, and three pairs of mounting holes at the back, so that the saddle could be fitted to any motorcycle.

The Brooks B182 saddle: As an in-between, and because they are related to the Lycett seats, here’s something about the Brooks saddles. There is a rumour that from 1942 onwards Lycett stopped making “Aero” saddles due to the rubber shortages. It is a fact that by the second half of 1942, the Japanese had captured the principal rubber producing areas. Which means that Great Britain was faced with a rubber shortage. The motorcycle manufacturers had to replace some rubber items by canvas equivalents (handlebar grips), or simply leave the rubber items away (petrol tank kneegrips, footrest rubbers). And of course, Lycett’s elastic bands were also made of rubber. For as far as I could find out, Lycett produced the elastic band saddle throughout the war. But take a look at the two illustrations below. It looks as if Lycett also started making a saddle with the same basic construction as their Aero model, but using coil springs instead of elastic bands. The elastic band hooks oblong holes in the horizontal part of the back rail were replaced by round holes, for the coil spring hooks. Two small U shaped brackets for the main springs are riveted to the vertical part of the L profile, à la Norton. This saddle is listed as a Brooks (model B.182) saddle, not as a Lycett. This can be explained by the fact that Brooks had taken over the Lycett Saddle Company in 1920, and it looks as if the Lycett brand name was primarily used for the upmarket “AERO” elastic band saddles. And here's another Brooks. This time the vertical side of the L profile is facing upwards. Not surprising, as Lycett was also producing both versions (vertical side upwards / downwards). Not sure if this is a WD saddle though: But this one was found on a G3/WO Matchless:

I've summarised all this information in an Excel spreadsheet, see attachment. Now please give me some time to do a similar job on the Terry saddles, the Dunlops, ... 😁 Edit: I have added an amended Excel list at the end of this thread.

The Lycett saddle: Universal version: I think that everyone will agree that it must have been a logistical nightmare for the Army workshops to keep all these different Lycett spare parts in stock (and the same goes for all the Terry versions as well, see later). This is why the “Universal” saddles were introduced in late 1943. They were an attempt to standardise the saddles, in order to make the spare parts situation less complex. The aim was to have a “one size fits all” saddle, a saddle that would fit on every motorcycle make and every model. To achieve this the saddle makers all used the same system (probably imposed by the Ministry of Supply): two pairs of holes at the nose of the saddle, and three pairs of holes at the back. This would give us 6 different saddle position combinations, but brackets could be attached to the front and to the rear holes, in order to create even more saddle positions. There was a “Universal Terry” (see later), but there was also a “Universal Lycett”, both having the two pairs of holes at the nose of the saddle, and three pairs of holes at the back. Almost every 1944-onwards spare parts catalogue (for almost every motorcycle make) lists the following items (the scan below comes from a Royal Enfield parts list): - a Terry universal saddle (which was called the S.831), - a cover with a Terry number, that could also be used for the Lycett Universal, - a pair of rear springs, again with a Terry number, but these springs could also be used on the Lycett Universal, - a Terry Universal mattress assembly - (3 x 2) + 1 different elastic bands for the Lycett Universal saddle. (Some parts catalogues show less elastic bands for the Lycett Universal, but this must have been an error. Every Lycett Universal saddle that I’ve seen so far has 14 oblong holes, for 7 elastic bands.) Details: The Lycett universal saddle combined the nose of a Norton Lycett with the back-rail of a BSA Lycett saddle: the Universal Lycett saddle was made from a steel frame in which elastic bands were used as a mattress. The back-rail of the steel frame is an L-profile, and in the Universal Lycett saddle the vertical side of this L-profile was facing upwards. In the horizontal side of the L-profile there are 14 slots for the hooks of the elastic bands. The Universal Lycett uses 14 elastic bands (7 loops). The nose plate is riveted to the saddle frame. The saddle is 12” 1/2 long, and is about 15" 1/2 wide. There are two pairs of holes at the nose of the saddle. At the rear two large L shaped brackets are riveted to the vertical part of the L profile, for the main springs. Each bracket has 3 holes. The Lycett Universal had a Rexine cover with a Lycett badge. “Naked” Universal Lycett: Universal Lycett with special Matchless brackets added: Universal Lycett on a late war Ariel W/NG: Universal Lycett on a late war Norton 16H with experimental exhaust pipe / silencer: The BSA Parts List below is interesting. First of all, this list only shows 5 of the 7 elastic bands that were used on the Lycett Universal, this is an error. But there is an interesting footnote in the late war BSA Parts list below: “Where replacement elastics are unobtainable, Mattress Assembly MT1/TE/S831/16/ASS may be used in lieu.”: And this is exactly what happened to the saddle below: this is a Lycett Universal, with 14 slots for the elastic band hooks, but the elastic bands have been replaced with Terry springs.

The Lycett saddle: Royal Enfield version: For as far as I could find out, Royal Enfield never used a Lycett saddle on their WD bikes. This isn’t really surprising me, as both Royal Enfield and Terry were based in Redditch...

The Lycett saddle: Velocette version: In the Velocette MDD Parts List we can only find an illustration of the Velocette Lycett saddle. Not a lot we can say about that one… In the Velocette MAF Parts List there is no illustration, but a concise list of parts. There were 6 loops, or 12 elastic bands. The same information can also be found in the VAOS list. Judging by the length of the elastics, the nose plate will have been riveted to the saddle frame. And this picture shows that the vertical side of the L-profile was facing upwards:

The Lycett saddle: Ariel version: In the 1940 Ariel Parts List we find a Lycett saddle with 14 elastic bands (7 loops). No further details are given. In the post 1940 Ariel Parts List we find a Terry saddle and a Lycett. We’ll do the Terry saddles later. This time the Lycett information is much more detailed. Again we have 14 elastic bands (7 loops). And the codename for the saddle is AM1: The AM1 and AM2 saddles are also mentioned in the VAOS list. Both have 14 elastic bands (7 loops), but in the description below I don’t see any difference, apart from the year (AM1: 1940; AM2: 1941 onwards). Judging by the length of the elastics this saddle must have had a riveted rubber band collection plate. The picture below could be an Ariel Lycett saddle, with the vertical side of the L-profile facing upwards. And this picture could also be an Ariel Lycett saddle, with the vertical side of the L-profile facing downwards. “Conclusion” (with a proviso): Just like every Lycett, the Ariel version was made with a steel frame in which elastic bands were used as a mattress. The back-rail of the steel frame is an L-profile, and for the Ariel saddle the vertical side of this L-profile was facing upwards on the AM1 version and facing downwards on the AM2 version (this conclusion seems logical to me, considering that the early version with the vertical side facing upwards may have caused problems on bumpy roads, when this vertical side came in contact with the coccyx...). In the horizontal side of the L-profile there are 14 slots for the hooks of the elastic bands. The Ariel Lycett uses 14 elastic bands (7 loops). The nose plate is riveted to the saddle frame. Two large brackets for the front saddle mounting are riveted to the saddle frame. At the rear two L shaped brackets are riveted on the outside of the vertical part of the L profile, for the main springs. The Ariel Lycett has a Rexine cover and a “Lycetts - “AERO” Elastic Saddle Patented” brass badge. The cover has a banana shaped stitching at the back.

The Lycett saddle: Triumph version: Triumph 3SW: This page comes out of a Triumph 3SW parts list. Unfortunately this booklet doesn’t give any details on the saddle. I guess the “F1728" number is a Triumph ID number, not a Lycett number. But here’s a contemporary photograph, showing the saddle in detail. I see 12 elastic bands (6 loops), and an upwards facing L profile. Nose plate not visible (hinged à la BSA or riveted to the frame à la Norton…?). Triumph 3HW: Below is a page from the (early) Triumph 3HW VAOS list. Contrary to the 3SW version, this time we can see the details. This Triumph 3HW Lycett version only has 5 loops! In my opinion, the pictures below show such a Triumph 3HW Lycett saddle. What are the characteristics of this Triumph 3HW Lycett saddle? Just like every late 1930’s and war-time Lycett, the Triumph 3HW version was made with a steel frame in which elastic bands were used as a mattress. The back-rail of the steel frame is an L-profile, and for the Triumph 3HW saddle the vertical side of this L-profile was facing downwards. In the horizontal side of the L-profile there are 10 slots for the hooks of the elastic bands. The Triumph 3HW Lycett uses 10 elastic bands (5 loops). The nose plate hooks in the saddle frame. Two large brackets for the front saddle mounting are riveted / welded to the saddle frame. At the rear two L shaped brackets are riveted on the outside of the vertical part of the L profile, for the main springs.

The Lycett saddle: Matchless version: In the Matchless G3/WO Parts Lists we either only find a Lycett "type 35/G3/F60”, or a combination of a Terry saddle and a Lycett "type 35/G3/F60”. We’ll do the Terry saddles later. Here's a picture from an “original and unrestored” G3/WO: Just like every pre-war and war-time Lycett, the Matchless version was made with a steel frame in which elastic bands were used as a mattress. The back-rail of the steel frame is an L-profile, and for the Matchless saddle the vertical side of this L-profile was facing upwards. In the horizontal side of the L-profile there are 14 slots for the hooks of the elastic bands. The Matchless Lycett uses 14 elastic bands (7 loops). In the picture above the nose of the saddle isn’t visible, but considering the length of the elastics (identical to the BSA Lycett), I think it’s reasonable to assume that the nose plate hooks in the saddle frame ("à la BSA"). At the rear two L shaped brackets are riveted on the outside of the vertical part of the L profile, for the main springs. The Matchless Lycett has a Rexine cover and a “Lycetts - “AERO” Elastic Saddle Patented” brass badge. The cover has rounded corners and a banana shaped stitching at the back.

The Lycett saddle: BSA version: In the early BSA M20 Parts Lists there are two saddles: the Terry S707 and the Lycett L115. In later parts lists there are three saddles: Terry S818, Lycett M20B and Wrights W43/M. Presumably BSA was using what was available at the time…The Terry and the Wrights saddles will be explained later in this survey, let us first have a look at the BSA Lycett saddles. Details: Just like every late 1930’s and war-time Lycett, the BSA version was made with a steel frame in which elastic bands were used as a mattress. The back-rail of the steel frame is an L-profile, and for the BSA saddle the vertical side of this L-profile was facing upwards. In the horizontal side of the L-profile there are 14 slots for the hooks of the elastic bands. The BSA Lycett uses 14 elastic bands (7 loops). The nose plate hooks in the saddle frame. The saddle is 12” 1/2 long, and is about 15" 1/2 wide. Two large brackets for the front saddle mounting are riveted to the saddle frame. At the rear two L shaped brackets are riveted on the outside of the vertical part of the L profile, for the main springs. The BSA Lycett has a Rexine cover and a “Lycetts - “AERO” Elastic Saddle Patented” brass badge. The cover has rounded corners and a banana shaped stitching at the back. Due to the fact that the elastic bands are attached to the bottom of the L profile, the saddle cover is not “flat” when fitted to the saddle. Unfortunately I have no original illustrations of these Lycett saddles, only some war time pictures. The pictures below are definitely “early” (L115 version): And I think that this is a “late” (M20B version) BSA Lycett (see pictures below). I think that the small brackets for the knee grips at the back of the early version are the only difference between the L115 and the M20B versions.

The Lycett saddle: Norton version: During the late 1930’s, Lycett was famous for their “Aero” saddle, which used elastic bands instead of tension springs for the saddle mattress. They claimed better comfort than on a “conventional" saddle. Norton 16H: Although the Norton Parts Lists always talk about the Lycett, and never mention the Terry saddle, some Nortons were fitted with a Terry saddle. This Norton Terry saddle will be explained later. I have a feeling that the first WD Aero saddle was developed for or in collaboration with Norton, as Norton always refers to the “Lycett saddle “Aero” type, Norton 1937 War Office Model”. What are the characteristics of a Norton Lycett saddle? Just like every late 1930’s / war time Lycett, the Norton version was made with a steel frame in which elastic bands were used as a mattress. The back-rail of the steel frame is an L-profile, and for the Norton saddle the vertical side of this L-profile was facing downwards. In the horizontal side of the L-profile there are 12 slots for the hooks of the elastic bands. The Norton Lycett uses 12 elastic bands (6 loops). The nose plate is riveted to the saddle frame. The saddle is 12” 1/2 long, and is about 15" 1/2 wide. Two large brackets for the front saddle mounting are riveted to the saddle frame. At the rear two small U-shaped brackets are riveted to the vertical part of the L profile, for the main springs. The Norton Lycett has a Rexine cover and a “Lycetts - “AERO” Elastic Saddle Patented” brass badge. The cover has rounded corners and a banana shaped stitching at the back. Due to the fact that the elastic bands are attached to the top of the L profile, the saddle cover is absolutely “flat” when fitted to the saddle. Norton Big 4: The Big 4 Lycett saddles are more or less identical to the 16H version. The saddle and the pillion saddle are almost identical, the only difference being the fact that the front saddle had knee grips for the pillion passenger, the rear saddle obviously didn’t have these knee grips. But: the Big 4 version has different mounting brackets when compared with the 16H saddles.

Some time ago a made a survey (https://hmvf.co.uk/topic/40683-g3l-rear-seat-id/) on the war-time pillion seats that had been used by the War Department. And I have been thinking about doing a similar survey for the saddles… The problem is that nothing looks more like a saddle than another saddle. Especially if it’s largely hidden by a black Rexine cover. And by the rider’s legs… On top of that, most war time motorcycle pictures are front views. In a front view you can hardly see any interesting saddle details. Very few war-time photographs are taken from behind. And when they are, very often the saddle is hidden behind the pillion seat, or behind the rider’s coat. Only to say that identifying saddles on war time photographs is not easy. Photographs from “time capsule” discoveries are also a good source of information. And finally I also checked the official Works Photographs (when available), and the parts lists for the different contracts. But we know that for these "accessories”, the parts lists are not always 100% accurate. It looks as if sometimes the motorcycle manufacturers simply had to fit what was available... This means that my findings here are by no means conclusive. Anyone who’s got more information can add this to this thread. So please Gentlemen, feel free to contribute! There were two large saddle factories (Lycett and Terry), plus four smaller companies (Mansfield, Brooks, Dunlop, Wrights). In this survey I will go through all the saddles per saddle maker. We’ll start with Lycett.

I hope at least you used a BSW adjustable spanner and not a Metric one! 🙂

Hi Paul, The Royal Enfield Owners Club own the post war Model G ledgers. They do a dating service for members. I can strongly recommend to become a member! Regards, Jan

Thanks for the pictures Paul! But I'm afraid to say that this is a post war Model G, not a military WD/CO. The engine number has a "G" prefix, and it is stamped close to the oil filler. And the Model G had a headstock which is 1" higher than the WD/CO (also visible in your picture). Jan

Just sent you a message Paul! Regards, Jan

Just found this one...

Oops, yes, they were used on the WD/G and WD/L indeed. But not on the WD/CO... 😊