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Jason......

Sleeveless liner....

Size 1 - height 150-160

Size 2 " 160-170

Size 3 " 170-180

Size 4 " 180-190

Plus "Special"

Sleeved arctic liner....

Size 1 - height 150-170 chest 90-100

Size 2 - " 150-170 " 102-112

Size 3 - " 170-190 " 90-100

Size 4 - " 170-190 " 102-112

Size 5 - " 170-190 " 114-124

Plus "Special"

Hope this assists.....:-)

If anyone is interested,this could probably go as it doesnt really fit into my collection and i have a bad habbit of buying unusual stuff;)

That makes two of us Harry ! :-D

I thought the vinyl chinstrap assembly was binned straight after the Falklands due to the negative comments from the Paras who were issued it. After this they can be seen with the Tan coloured web chinstrap from the WW2 type steel Para Helmet.

Ah, but the GS MK6 lid didn't become available for general issue until 86, the chinstrap assembly (available as a replacement part) also fitting the para helmet........in the interim, many used the old khaki-coloured webbing harness from the steel para helmet (also available as a spare)......

Mind you, the GS MK6 harness could have appeared earlier, initially being intended for the para helmet and then subsequently used in the GS MK6.....? It would need a check of NSNs to find an actual introduction date into the supply system.....

SASS made some damn fine DPM clothing......in my experience it was very well designed and beautifully manufactured....this company put quality above all else.....and the fact that many of their earlier garments still soldier-on today is a reflection of this.......

Buttons eventually binned as a FOD hazard on flight-decks......plus, hard to fasten in cold weather and rendering the flap still prone to water-penetration......hence the velcro on the MK3 version............was there a MK2 ?

Bloody hell Jason...!!!! Have you kept anything ???!! Personally, I have recently disposed of duplicates in my 60 pattern stash, but need to do similar with my 68 pattern hoarde......I reckon I have over 30 smocks plus trousers.....(HOW..???!!!)

My focus is keeping sufficient examples for the forthcoming Bible......

Going by the date, this would have originally had the vynil/leather harness fitted......but these were often subsequently replaced from '86 onwards by the GS MK6 webbing version......

It's worth mentioning that DPM garments were never issued to make a perfect colour-matched combination......indeed, if you managed this it was either by sheer luck, you were matey with the storeman, you were the storeman or you were just too fashion-conscious !!!

Personally, I always had to accept the garment thrown at me from the top of the stack on the shelves, after the lazy b%$£@£d had put his paper or girlie mag down.....

That DPM colour/pattern is the same as my large 63 pattern DPM windproof.....so an early 70s variant....

This just MAY be a commercial item from "SASS" in Lancaster....but quite old and probably dating from the late-1980s.....and it may have been further modified....?

The large external rear pocket was a classic feature of some of their designs........bloody good kit too, in my humble opinion.....they did actually make their own version of the DPM Sniper Smock, called a "Sneaky-Beaky" smock.....similar to the issue item but with extra features..........long since discontinued......

Contract "0662" appears to be the one made by Remploy for the CS 95 "User-Trial" clothing.......I have a mint set of lightweight trousers and shirt, a second shirt, a field jacket and hood (both manufacturers sealed-patterns)....all are Remploy-made with this contract number.......still looking for the DPM fleece, Goretex liner and trousers, plus the other pattern of trial field jacket with attached hood......

Mine with the big "Denison style" chrome Newey studs is dated 1974........and the item, as mentioned earlier, was still listed as current during 1986.......

Nice item ! The hood bears the label from the original 1950-51 pattern in gabardine (no reference to "sateen") although by 1958 (actually from 1952 onwards) these hoods were made from cotton-sateen, lined with gabardine..........thus "1952 pattern"........

These are the green version of the "classic" RN foul weather jacket.....this is the first pattern with the button front, the MK3 version having the buttons replaced by velcro.....

These are 1970s, serving on into the early 90s until replaced by Goretex garments....

Commonly found in blue, the green version was generally used by Marines, etc.........as photos of the period will evidence...

Even Price Phillip can be found wearing one of these MK1s in green...!

I think the supply situation around the time of the Falklands conflict was pretty dire......and we soon ran short of suitable cold-weather kit, hence possible out-sourcing from commercial suppliers.......James Smith and Co were MoD contractors around this time, but the firm went bust during 1987 (I still have the article somewhere).....

In real terms, the conflict was too short for many commercially-sourced items to arrive in-theatre other than true emergency-aquisitions that would likely have been taken from shop and manufacturers stocks directly without any official labeling applied, although former officially-sourced commercial items would likely have arrived in-theatre for use in the post-war period.....after all, stocks of suitable cold-weather kit were seriously low for some time after the war ended......

A mate of mine in the RAF was sent to RAF Stanley during early 83 and was issued with the short green Canadian extreme-cold weather parka then used by the RAF for issue in areas such as Goose Bay (Canada), etc........DPM parka's were unavailable, as were arctic windproofs and liners.........

According to official sources, the steel fittings were introduced to combat shortages of brass needed for munitions production.......we are looking at 1942 to 1945 here, thereafter production reverting to brass.......

Wartime steel fittings are usually a grey-colour, the official name being "sheradised".........post-war, steel was still used but now finished in a painted or anodised black.......

Check out the website "Karkee web".......full of official detail....:-)

Hmmm.....so the implication is that the item is wrong then???

I find the idea of that a bit laughable mate. This was a scabby £5 quid liner in 1983, by my reckoning it's a scabby £20 liner now, so I'm not sure what your point is. When I acquired this gear (all of it pre 1985ish, I didn't bother after that) there was absolutely no interest whatsoever in DPM. Nobody wanted it other than to wear it on a building site or fishing.

The idea that anyone would fake something like that in the 1980s is a bit of a non starter!

As I said in a previous post, I bought a lot of stuff from returning FI vets. My brother had been down there and many of his mates sold and gave me stuff. I can't recall paying more than £15-20 for any of it and most of it was buckshee.

 

At that time I was a serious WW1 collector (and still have most of it) and found the 'war souvenir' stuff that was turning up in junk shops, which we still had in those fantastic pre ebay days, and collectors markets very interesting and considerably cheaper than WW1 kit. At the start of the 80s WW1 kit started to shoot up in price and the FI stuff was a cheap and then easy to find alternative distraction.

I started to buy and scrounge mainly Argie kit but then complimentary items of British kit. The proviso was that it had either been worn down south, or at the very least issued for use down there.

I picked up some pretty amazing and historic items in the process. I was very friendly with a senior researcher at the Imperial War Museum, a fellow WW1 collector, who knew that I had amassed a large collection of FI related kit and when the museum put together its 10th anniversary exhibition in 1992, I was asked to lend a lot of items for display.

As an aside the IWM had made absolutely no effort in obtaining good original items from the conflict other than odd things like Prince Andrew's gloves or Mrs T's besk blotter etc etc, something they repeated to a slightly lesser extent after Gulf 1. They were desperate to obtain representative items for the display and I worked with the designers to set up the exhibits. The IWM specially commissioned some manequins for the Argie kit and I kept those at the end of the exhibition.

 

When it was all over, I decided that I didn't want the bulk of the kit back and flogged it to them for around 4K, which gives you an idea of the amount of material involved. It included bullet holed items from GH, a data panel from a cluster bomb dropped in the first air raid on Stanley and other such historical gems. I retained some of the Argie SF and conscript kit. I also still have some 'celebrity' kit from people such as Alfredo Astiz and Lt. Col Piaggi, Santa Fe officers etc and some very Good Argie SF stuff. I also have some Brit celebrity kit in addition.

 

Anyway, that is a long digression, back to the liner. This has only recently been taken from a box last opened in 1992, the only time it had actually left the box since then. So I can assure you it is a genuine item. It is not for sale. I posted it for interests sake and to find out a little more about it. I have seen these liners in more than one photograph from the conflict and I have feeling that there is a photo of somebody wearing one in one of those 'Observer Big Bumper Fun Annual of the Falklands' type books published in 1982. Can't remember the unit but almost certain it was not RAF. There were some pretty strange things happening then. Blacks and Millets supplied emergency kit for 5 Brigade in the form of bergans in blue and bottle green I seem to recall, imagine trying to identify one of those babies now?? Unless you are given one by the vet that wore it how would you ever know. They are genuine 'issue' items nonetheless.

I don't think a partial NSN list would help there either.

 

Unless someone finds a list that identifies 22F etc as Pants, Lounging, Latex, RAF Officers, then I think we have to accept that this is a pukka item. I would also point out that it is far grottier in real life than in the iphone pics I provided. The label is quite grubby and yellow, the flash has made it look cleaner than it is. It has not been fiddled with in any way, why the hell would anyone bother? Personally I wouldn't even take the lid off the Singer sewing machine for the amount this would make, even downhill with a strong tailwind and Brigadier Julian Thompson wearing it!

 

Cheers

 

Paul

Hey Paul.....a bit defensive in the reply ! I'm only offering an unqualified opinion, and I did state "I could be wrong" !! Plus, I fully concur with your comments.....You are entirely correct in remarking that at the period in question a great deal of kit was obtained from non-standard sources....I can think of Berghaus, Karrimor, etc, all entering the supply system one way or the other....perhaps by stating "not issue" I should have added the wording "standard".....this does not mean that the item wasn't official issue, simply not the standard, or common issue......

As mentioned, the only way to correctly identify an item is by the NSN (which this item carries) and then refer that to the published NSN lists that give a date, description and other references......as mentioned, I don't have a RAF "22F" listing, only a "22C" (flying clothing) and a "CG" list that covers Army combat clothing ....so I am offering my own opinion based on this, nothing else.....after all, wasn't your original posting intended to gather comment, opinion and feedback...? Perhaps I have I misunderstood something...?

As an aside, as an ex-provo, I can recall two jobs in the early 80s involving individuals charged for wearing non-standard kit who claimed it was "issue"......turned out that they had sewn-in official labels from other garments to pass a cursory kit inspection........! "Why bother" was the only thought in my mind........:undecided:

It's an interesting one.......but something is only worth what someone else is willing to pay for it.......I always admire that famous quote "(knows) the price of everything and the value of nothing"......

I think we all set ourselves a personal bench-mark of what we think something is worth and what we are prepared to pay for something, and I must admit the older I've become the more adherent I've become to my own limits........no matter how much I want something !!! (mind you, 'er indoors does contribute to the train of thought to a greater degree....)...

I think part of my own problem with prices and values is comparing things today with what I paid years back for the same thing..........and I often can't get over that obstacle.....! :undecided:

It always amuses me how the British military managed to develop some completely useless articles of clothing.....though things have improved nowadays to a certain degree....

I remember during the early 1980s in the RAF, WAAFs in the provost branch ended up stuck in the field in places such as Greenham, etc........DPM kit was issued, but generally only that available in stores (eg - size 1 upwards)......Supply Flight rarely bothered to order-in (or even check if available) the smaller "0" sizes......hence I can remember some particularly petite individuals swathed in size 1 combats with sleeves rolled up simply to fit and an overall appearance of "baggyness"..:laugh:

Even more amusing was the footwear situation.......standard ankle DMS boots only went down in size so far....so a number of females ended up being issued with the old screw-on sole "commando" boots dating back years that were seemingly available in minute sizes at the back of stores........

This style of red-cross armband hasn't changed much in well over 100 years.......the Army still held and issued stocks of some very ancient armbands right up into the 1990s......some of these may well have dated back to the first world war, although most are undated......you can generally tell from the material and style of construction that these things are rather old.......the ink stamp was often applied by the RAMC on receipt or prior to issue, etc, to authenticate the status of the bearer acting under the symbol of the red cross......

Not worth a great deal but always interesting none-the-less.....:-)

Hmmm.....I have to say that I'm not entirely convinced that this is an issue garment...!!! This is despite the label, although I may well be wrong......:-)

Unfortunately, I do not have a full NATO stock number listing, so can't look up this particular garment going by the label....

I note that the NSN on the label begins with "22F".....whereas in the '86 QM catalogue both the 68 pattern sleeveless liner and the arctic windproof liner with buttons and sleeves come under category "CG" (combat clothing), although the latter may have originally come under "CM" (specialist and cold-weather stuff)........

"22F" also seems to me to be a RAF-type NSN.......flying clothing coming under "22C".........so, if an original issue garment was this a RAF-issue item...? There does not appear to be any "pattern designation" visible above the label's NSN, and the label itself looks to be "raw" or "cut" just above the NSN with loose stitching, possibly suggesting latter application...?

This garment resembles a civilian horse-riding style coat popular during the late-1970s and early 1980s, complete with corduroy collar and side vents for when on horseback.....I wonder if the RAF "purloined" a commercial garment for limited official issue, possibly in the Falklands, around the early 80s.....?

Interesting........:-D

Survival Aids were one of the few sources during the late-70s and early 80s where you could obtain the "SAS" smock as the issue item was not generally available on the surplus market.......I think the company ordered them from the same contractors supplying the MoD, thus they are basically identical to the issue item.......

Around the same time they also offered a copy of the late model 59 pattern Denison, although the cammo print, studs and zip were not quite a true replica of the original issue items phased out of MoD manufacture by 1975-76......

Another item made was a copy of the tropical cellular airtex shirt and cross-buckle drill trousers in green......I have a pair of the latter and they are identical to the issue item apart from labeling.......

Whilst you are all discussing liners, can anyone tell me about this liner? It is one of the ones with the groovy little corduroy collar and two patch pockets on the lower front. Press stud closure with 5 studs and knitted cuffs. Why the differences?

 

Cheers

 

Paul

 

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Paul, what does the designation at the top of the label say ? I can't see it in the photo.....

As far as I know, sleeveless vests for the '68 pattern smocks, long sleeved button front for the arctic and SAS smocks (although we always wore the Helly Hansen Field Pile jacket ) and the long sleeved with velcro f6ornt closing was for the parkas.

 

Steve ??

 

Dave

Yep, as stated Dave.....sleeveless liner part of the 68 ensemble (introduced around 71-72) and obsolete by 1986.....the "84" pattern smock was specified to be worn with the buttoned, sleeved liner as used with the arctic windproof smock.....(and you needed it, as the former was bereft of lining....)

Size 2 hoods are not as common as 1s, but if you find a large pile of 'em there are invariably a few 2s mixed in.....grab 'em whilst you can..........

Quick question: when was the design of temperate DPM finalised and was it part of the development of the 1968 Pattern clothing or a separate project?

 

Thanks,

Mark

Separate project basically........I had a trial DPM jacket many years ago now in the standard DPM cammo, styled like a 59 pattern Denison but lined like a 52 pattern parka ! It was dated 1963 and a UK trial garment......this suggests that DPM development was underway by the early 1960s.......

The fabric first appeared on issue during late 1969-70 in the form of the DPM 60 pattern suit......the 68 pattern was then still under development as a replacement and did not commence issue until early 71.........some trial 68 garments were allegedly made up in green to test the design rather than DPM.......

The MoD announced their intention to universally introduce DPM as early as 1966 but it seems that it took another few years for this to actually occur......

By 1970 DPM garments introduced were basically the 60 pattern smock and trousers, the 63 pattern windproof suit, and the MK2A aircrew suit........followed by the 68 pattern smock and trousers by 1971, the new SAS windproof smock & trousers around 1975, the arctic windproof suit and tropical combats by 1976, and the parka, para and sniper smocks by 1977......