wdbikemad

Not certain they are suitable for 60 pattern smocks.......all late issues, including the DPM version, as original fittings almost always used "NZ" (Newey) zips.....earlier production used "Swift", "DoT", "Lightning", "Aero", etc......but not "Clix"....although these DID feature on many 68 pattern garments.......

Mind you, stores replacement zips may well have been of later, non-original spec pattern....?

Dry cleaning is a no-no......this process always manages to fade garments....

Best is a very light wash........best to ask the missus though for info on this process........I can operate lathes, computers, heavy machinery, firearms, etc.......but the microwave, DVD, TV controller and washing machine confuse me (I use the 12 year old for the former)....even the vacuum cleaner is challenging.....:-D

I have shed-loads of buttons.....all types !!!

Nice One,Thanks.

 

I am constantly unearthing stuff bought many many years ago so some nice surprises when im finding stuff i forgot or didnt even know i had.

 

Last count 10 68 Patt Smocks and around the same in Trs:nut::nut::nut:

Not bad.....I reckon I have in excess of 30-odd 68 pattern smocks, plus trousers......and a lot of everything else.......

After I've sorted for "the book", a lot will go.........:-(

I'm up for some Harry......they should vary in length up to 33".......

I have a similar stash of trouser zips !!!

Would consider some sort of 68 pattern kit as a swap for some....anything you need...??:-)

Korean war issue Harry, for wear beneath the 1951-issue "Trousers Combat" (in gabardine) and the subsequent 1952 and 1953 Pattern "Trousers, Combat, Sateen" (in cotton-sateen, unlined)........part of the cold-weather rig, designed to be worn over the long-johns, but beneath the combat trousers.....and in combination with the top-half garments, including the "Parka, Middle" worn over the top.......!

Jason and I have pairs of these dated 1951, but a small size......nice to see the larger size ! Proves the garments were made in corresponding sizes to the combat suit, up to a "9".........thanks !

Might be a Radar commercial copy......the press-fasteners are non-standard, although I have seen an issue smock made by "Dashmoor Clothing Ltd" with these fasteners (early pattern, size 1).........note also, that the partial lining is DPM fabric, not the standard olive-drab poplin........

I THINK the charging rhino is the insignia of the 1st Armoured Division...? I could be wrong though (no reference books here)....

Nice bike , just one question about the front mudguard , wyhave some a rib in the middle and others are plain like the rear ones ?

I also got a co , but am still on the search for a decent saddle cover , most I have seen are bad (cheap)reproductions .

Late-war CO's lost the ribbed 'guards as part of the economising and expediting of production..........

The CO/B is pleasant to ride....the Burman gearbox, if a little clunky, is reliable, easy to service, and parts are available.....

Personally, I always prefered the standard Enfield Albion 'box, that has a lovely neat gearchange.....but nothing wrong with a decent Burman either.....

R K Leighton still the best source for saddle covers....but nobody manages to match the WD Terry or Lycett originals in rexine.....very well made, and still fitted to TRW's and surviving M20s & G3L's during the 1960s.......these were still available NOS into the early 80s (being supplied in a large cardboard box similar to a family-size pizza), and I managed to source mine through patience over 5 years......you may still be lucky !

This could be a UK-made item for the Southern Irish Army, circa 1960s-70s.........? This would account for the British colour, fittings, etc......

The Irish Army around this period wore a combat uniform almost identical to the green 1960 pattern UK combat suit, but manufactured specifically for the Irish to 60 pattern specs after production for the UK military had ceased.......some smocks and trousers occasionally appear today, usually dated from the early 1970s with unique labeling lacking and of the typical NSNs, etc......I think the garments were either made in Ireland or by England-based manufacturers....?

The green cadet windproof was still listed as available but obsolete during 1986, according to the QM lists........it was replaced by the cadet version of the DPM combat smock (no top pockets, etc)......I bet a fair few cadet units still have these things kicking around.....

"AD" on the label refers to "Army Department"......and the item was intended for the Army Cadet Force (ACF), RM cadets and the army element of the Combined Cadet Force (CCF)......

Nice ! Very low contract number too, so I would date these as from the first production runs of the mid-1970s........

I have a near-mint Size 3 windproof also from this era and in the same cammo pattern and colour.....

what sort of price do they go for? I may be able to get my hands on some but what should i pay?

Not so long ago, you would have had to pay someone to take these off your hands........but in recent months, if Ebay is anything to go by, these smocks, particularly in the larger size 4 and 5, seem to be fetching between £60 - £120......

Hard to value in real terms though.....something is only actually worth what someone else is prepared to fork out for it.........:-D

Joined the ATC (1244) in 1977.........hairy BD was the norm, with light-blue shirt although some bods were issued with the older blue-flecked variety although with attached collar.........

Others in the squadron began to be issued with the ribbed round-neck pully and the dark-blue RAF working-dress shirt that didn't need to be worn with a tie.......

Trousers continued to be the BD type although the smoother RAF No.2 dress polyester trousers began to be issued to some guys......

Berets were the 1960s/70s RAF issue with the PVC headband......always 2nd-hand, as was most kit....very few ever received anything that hadn't previously been issued......

Greatcoats were the outerwear......although the blue nylon MK2A "Jeltek" waterproof jacket began to be issued to some....

ATC insignia was a combination of old 1960s issue on RAF blue-grey although again, the later type on dark-blue began to appear on issue....

By the early 1980s, BD was a rarity, as were light-blue shirts (always worn with a tie), and most guys by then had the polyester trousers and "Jelteks".......if you still had the older kit you could still wear it....

RAF stable-belts could be worn if purchased.....

ATC Flight Sergeants and WOs could wear a peaked cap......these were generally very 2nd-hand and of the 1960s pattern in serge or blue-grey with the square "duck-bill" visor........

By 1983, when I revisited my old squadron, they were clearing out loads of NEW (!!!) greatcoats and RAF BD from the stores.......we never saw it issued during my time, and always had to put up with 2nd-hand issues.....guess stores were for storing....:-\

Happy times !

Well-known photos ! Just goes to show the popularity of the old green cadet windproof.........not actually a bad garment in a classic, traditional design.......very "retro" nowadays, probably causing the increased interest (and prices) today....:-\

Always bear in mind, 1952 and 60 pattern smocks made up to 1964 with the original sleeve design (square elbow reinforcement and underarm vents) are a bloody awful fit......best to look for post-64 manufactured smocks with the redesigned sleeve (oval elbow reinforcement patches) for the best fit.......the sleeve redesign also improved the chest and overall body fit enormously.....:-D

Some serial numbers were factory-applied, thus generally in a standard format for particular manufacturers......

AMC (Matchless) and Ariel appear to have used stenciled format, whereas BSA, Norton, etc, appeared to use a block format, probably originally sign-written (painted) although evidence exists to indicate decals (transfers) were later-used, no doubt to speed-up volume production...........for the latter, try using waterslide classic motorcycle (front) numberplate decals...?

Sizes varied, but 1 & 3/4" seems to have been the norm...........

Best to study loads of period photos to get a feel for what is correct....although any variation is equally "accurate" in most cases....:-\

I can only add Compton Webb, Dave ! Plus, I have some pairs of late-manufacture SAS crossover trousers that are made by a variant manufacturer but without checking can't for the life of me remember who.....

 

Both trousers and smock remained largely unchanged until the mid-2000's, complete with large sewn-on buttons on the smock.....

Supercraft Garments are another.......:-)

I agree it has some merit/logic for the Arctic versions Steve but as only RM tend to go to the Northern Flank and that if it is THAT cold, you wear a parka, I say again, why put the arctic hood design on the general issue smock for temperate regions ?

 

I used the 'SAS' smock in extreme conditions and if it got cold, I wore a green Mountain Equipment hollofil parka over the top, much as the lads do with the softie kit nowadays.

That's a good point Dave.....the large hood on the original arctic windproof smock was obviously for a specific purpose in cold-climate combat conditions, the arctic windproof suit being far more suitable for combat than the heavy parka that was intended more for static duties.....plus the arctic suit was issued not just for RM but for many other troops in supporting arms, including RAMC, signals, etc.......indeed, the suit was issued to general infantry units for Falklands deployments after the war of 1982.....

That said, many troops hated the large hood, and it is common to find arctic windproof smocks with the wire or the entire baffle assembly removed....

A good point really then....why continue using the weather baffle on the later non-gabardine general service smocks ? One thing I am mindful of is the possibility that these are now intended for use in arctic climates as well (with liner)...possibly in an attempt to make one garment suitable for a range of potential environments rather than several different ones...?..later post-95 issues of the arctic windproof trousers were produced in DPM ripstop fabric, probably the smock too, and even later issues of the smock are now made in a rather heavy cotton-synthetic non-ripstop mix......:undecided:

Cookson Clegg, H E Textiles and James Smith and Co. Steve will be along in a minute to correct me or add to the list

i have trousers made well into the 90's withthe cross over belts and in gaberdine so why not the smocks ?

 

Or it might be a gaberdine SASS or Survival Aids version.

 

One surefire way to check the type of material is to set fire to the smock. If there is only a little ash left which you can rub beteen your fingers and it disappears, it's gaberdine (100% cotton). If there's a sticky plactic material left then it's a crappy standard issue one ;-)

 

Dave

I can only add Compton Webb, Dave ! Plus, I have some pairs of late-manufacture SAS crossover trousers that are made by a variant manufacturer but without checking can't for the life of me remember who.....

Both trousers and smock remained largely unchanged until the mid-2000's, complete with large sewn-on buttons on the smock.....

One of the reasons I asked this question is I found what looks to be a real SAS smock. The problem is that its from the late 90s, but still produced of Gaberdine, and I would have thought manufacturers would have exhausted their stock by this time. It sure does look correct though.

 

Who were the major manufacturers of SAS smocks in England?

Cotton-gabardine used for "SAS" windproof smocks and trousers, plus arctic windproofs, right up to the mid-2000's.....although over the years the cammo print has changed in colour, pattern and detail although is still essentially the same specification from the mid-1970s when both suits first introduced........the actual fabric dates back to pre-WW2 for some aircrew clothing, and is still used today to manufacturer the MK3 aircrew cold weather suit.....

Any genuine MoD-issue "SAS" garments will not feature "SAS" on the label......and will have a contract number as well as the NSN......some of the commercial copies, actually taken from MoD production runs, are identical to issue but lack any contract number on the label.....I have seen SAS, arctic & para smocks like this.....

Very late/last production SAS & arctic windproofs appear in many cases to be made from a rather striking DPM print that features a dark green and brown on a very pale khaki base.......

Gaberdine is the kiddy. But it is expensive and so, when it was decided to give everybody the arctic smocks, it was decided to use a cheaper cloth to keep costs down.

 

To be fair the new cloth is probably tougher and more tear resistant but gaberdine was softer, had better wind resistance and dried quicker than the thicker cotton/nylon blend.

 

The new cloth , having a nylon content, must have some increased melting issues. But then again, so does most of the cloth used nowadays. That's why junglies were banned for N.I and crowd control duties.

 

I've never quite gotten my head around the reason for issuing the wired hood version though. It makes the hood too big and cumbersome. The 'SAS' smock hood was perfect.

 

Dave

Hood on the arctic version designed to go over the DPM "Dangerous Brian" cold weather pile cap, and the wired flap designed to act as a windproof baffle from arctic winds and snow, similar to a snorkel parka.....:-D

The DPM hood, unlike the smock and trousers, never changed the NSN between 1972 and 1984 when becoming obsolete....despite changing in material content to semi-synthetic around 1976-77.........occasionally, the "combat DPM" designation is missing from the label......

Manufacturers were many, including F. Fryer, H E Textiles, Compton Webb, Eltite Ltd, James Smith, XPN, XWS, Remploy, etc.........

I have a NOS size 2, but being kept for the book......

This is a 59 pattern smock.........not WW2 material, but very similar.........many companies were still supplying the "Drill, No.4, Camouflaged, WP" to earlier specs during the 1950s and 1960s, hence the variation in prints and colours.....all were supposed to comply with standard pattern samples held by the Ministry of Supply.....but the variations are infinite.....